HG Urmila nominated as a diksa guru - Page 2

09-12-2003, 02:18 PM

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(this is a different subject that has to be debated with more care...)

Is simply word jugglery.

Even from your point of view, is not what's going on.

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(we are not speaking of voting.. she's a guru already because she has followers who judge that she has the qualities.

Since when has having followers been a way to evalute who has guru qualification? To be qualified guru has nothing to do with opinions of one follower or one thousand followers. It must meet up to shastric qualifications. It is shastra that is the judge, not me, not you, not her followers.

This line of thought is not helping iskcon at all. Its helping it to maintain its maya.

yasodanandana · 09-12-2003, 02:23 PM

ehem... please appreciate the fact that i am disciple of a "non iskcon" gaudya math guru and my gurudeva was not approved by any gbc or committee... so i am not in any way partial

but, i repeat, if you think that GBC is not consultive you have to substantiate a little more, otherwise giving these strong critics without a good explaination you fall in vaishnava aparadha very easily

a guru is a guru, if they (GBC) agree he preaches in iskcon temples, if not he remains a guru but not approved by iskcon... then we will decide if the opinion of that commitee of sadhus is important for us or not... or we will decide that they are not sadhus and that this devotee is rejected for material motivations

the same thing is in all gaudya math

guru, shastra, sadhu

maybe other "not iskcon" sadhus are not organized in a "parliament" or "vatican" or "sanga" or "committee" but the result is the same.. they give an opinion.. we decide

so the problem is if you trust in the GBC sadhus, systems and labels are indifferent

the system (created by srila prabhupada) is pure and parampara'

09-12-2003, 02:28 PM

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This puts the GBC in a position superior to the guru.

therefore, not guru. GBC becomes real guru. only its kept hidden and the newbie doesn't know or want to admit or see.

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They, however, have no business in regulating gurus.

Agreed. no one can give proof either, that SP instructed GBC should regulate gurus, so they are not helping iskcon by supporting it.

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and if other gurus had gone on to form their own organizations, many of the problems we see now would not exist (in my humble opinion).

Never read anything where SP said once a qualified guru is found, that guru should not be part of iskcon but start their own mission with own disciples in that mission. can you give evidence of this?

yasodanandana · 09-12-2003, 02:33 PM

"Since when has having followers been a way to evalute who has guru qualification? To be qualified guru has nothing to do with opinions of one follower or one thousand followers. It must meet up to shastric qualifications. It is shastra that is the judge, not me, not you, not her followers"

yes.. but who judge if one meets up these qualifications? you ? me? your committee ? my vatican? george bush?

a follower makes his considerations (rationality, sentiment, scriptures, culture, opinion of others, conditionament etc..) and decides to take shelter or not, exactly like the prabhupada followers in the 60'

where's the jugglery?

my point is that the important thing is devotees... not the way they assembly themselves

09-12-2003, 02:38 PM

first, no disrespect is meant to you, only i've seen so much that my eyes see much more now than when new, i am not exempt from that wonder of newness. but since i have seen what i have, i realize their maya. part of which is to convince everyone of their greatness while they have decades of wrong activities in their history, and we do not see enough change.

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but, i repeat, if you think that GBC is not consultive you have to substantiate a little more, otherwise giving these strong critics without a good explaination you fall in vaishnava aparadha very easily

What u want me to be more conclusive on? U want to know of all the henious deeds many did? those who didn't, still not all are first class devotee, but they get to pick guru? so who is commiting vaishnava aparada so easily? Closing eyes to whats really going on with these persons in big position is vaishnava aparadha.

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the system (created by srila prabhupada) is pure and parampara'

who told u this is the system created by SP? He created a system, but not this one. not this nonsense one in current use, no. it is their own concoction. SP always said "self effulgent," and NO VOTING. Appointing, voting, agreeing, all same thing. and dont fool yourself, they only vote in who will not interefere with their paycheck, their position, their plans, etc. its not as ttranscendental as u would like to believe. its politics.

yasodanandana · 09-12-2003, 02:39 PM

"Never read anything where SP said once a qualified guru is found, that guru should not be part of iskcon but start their own mission with own disciples in that mission. can you give evidence of this? "

if you criticize so much the present iskcon, how can you find so strange that anyone can go away to start his mission?

iskcon is not good....... but everyone has to remain inside.... what is your goal in this discussion? "post samadhi"?

"Appointing, voting, agreeing, all same thing"

not in italian... neither in english... haribol

09-12-2003, 02:42 PM

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yes.. but who judge if one meets up these qualifications? you ? me? your committee ? my vatican? george bush?

and so my point is proven. no one knows anymore how to judge a guru, where to look up qualification in shastra, may places, then to compare and see if the guru meets up. because u do not know, does not mean i do not know, or others do not know. GBC knows you may say. i agree, and they avoid like the plague!

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where's the jugglery?

in my last post, explained there.

09-12-2003, 02:44 PM

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"Appointing, voting, agreeing, all same thing"

not in italian... neither in english... haribol

But in GBC language, it is. Haribol

theist · 09-12-2003, 02:56 PM

Is it all really this simple?

By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, by the grace of guru one gets Krsna.

yasodanandana · 09-12-2003, 03:24 PM

"and so my point is proven. no one knows anymore how to judge a guru"

GBC or not GBC the problem is on personal basis, not on beaurocratic basis

guru is necessary, we have to pray krsna to be blessed by a pure devotee... ultimately it is up to us.. and krsna

the same for the disciples of urmila prabhu

Kulapavana · 09-12-2003, 03:30 PM

Theist: "By the grace of Krsna one gets guru, by the grace of guru one gets Krsna"

That is a nice statement. Ultimately it is a personal matter between guru and disciple. If you are sincere, you can learn from anybody.

Jahnava Nitai Das · 09-12-2003, 04:04 PM

Remember that the GBC who is approving this person is the same GBC that was going to vote to "suspend" Gour Govinda Maharaja from being a Guru.

In such matters their vote is irrelevant in my opinion.

yasodanandana · 09-12-2003, 04:05 PM

"If you are sincere, you can learn from anybody. "

yes.. but one of these "anybody" has to be a pure devotee of sri krsna, and we have also to take initiation and instructions from him

theist · 09-12-2003, 04:13 PM

it is simple but finding the sincerity to put it into practice is rare in this world.

I am in such ignorance that I can't tell a real self realized lover of Krsna devotee from one who has only taken on the external mannerisms of one, including extensive(but external) knowledge of the scriptures. I am deaf dumb and blind so what can I do?

Turning to Krsna in my heart is my only viable option.

Krsna knows who His real devotee is. We must acknowledge our helpless position before the Lord and beg His guidance. He will hook us up and point out His beloved devotee in a way that we will understand. If we are sincere He will strengthen our faith in His sincere devotee.

This simple direct truth seems to be missing in the current Iskcon scheme.

The GBC appears to be trying to take His role upon themselves. You see, it is Krsna's pleasure to play that role of matchmaker. For so many births and deaths Supersoul has been linking us up with the results of our past karma. The act of connecting disciple and guru is a spiritual act, not a karmic one. A spiritual act takes Krsna's pleasure only into account.

All such concocted schemes are really an attempt to try and continue usurping Krsna's pleasure and position. Building a maze that one must find their way through to get to Krsna. The guru maze. GBC: "here is guru" that guru falls down. GBC "well in that case, there is another guru over there"...Then that one leaves to start his own mission. GBC: "you can't go with him because you really belong to us"

Now the totally confused and burnt out student throws up his hands and says "I quit".

We have scene this scenario played out before or own eyes.

To avoid such problems one only needs to tell new people to continue to read Prabhupada's books while chanting Hare Krsna in the association of devotees AND PRAY TO KRNSA WITHIN HIS HEART TO LINK HIM UP WITH KRSNA'S TRUE DEVOTEE.

Or is it we don't really believe there is a personal God in everyone heart that will hear and answer?

All such voting, appointment scemes are just faithless and usless.

stonehearted · 09-12-2003, 04:16 PM

jndas:
Remember that the GBC who is approving this person is the same GBC that was going to vote to "suspend"
Gour Govinda Maharaja from being a Guru.

In such matters their vote is irrelevant in my opinion.

Well said. We don't even need to go into the list of those who have been approved but not lived up to the reponsibility they accepted.

I have for a long time (since the '80s) made clear my lack of confidence in such voting regarding gurus. This, however, remains their system. I suggest that those of you who object and are invlolved with ISKCON contact your GBC reppresentative and make your abjections known. Although I'm probably "in good standing" (because I haven't publicly vilified the GBC, declared my allegiance to a 'non-ISKCON' acharya, or any other aggressive act, and because I persist in my sadhana and meager preaching efforts), I feel I have no real standing to tryto effect changes on GBC policies. That's why I wrote earlier that this isn't my business.

livingentity · 09-12-2003, 04:28 PM

can be very touchy. I pissed them off once a long time ago by questioning something (it has been so long I do not remember what it was). I got a not too nice letter from them and I just let it go at that and never went to them directly again with any concerns.

I am glad that JNdas brought up the Gour Govida Maharaja incident. Things like that should be remembered.

It is the voting for guru thing that always causes me confusion. voting reminds me too much of a popularity contest.

09-12-2003, 04:41 PM

Theist: "Now the totally confused and burnt out student throws up his hands and says "I quit"..."

Such students are not very sincere, and lack the basic understanding of guru/disciple relationship (which often is not really their fault as they are being fed misleading concepts). A sincere seeker will not give up the process of Krishna consciousness just because their guru ran into personal maya problems and no longer represents our sampradaya. The sampradaya is still there, so is Krishna... Once you are properly connected to the sampradaya and Krishna, when your diksa guru is no longer present you just turn to another guru in our sampradaya that inspires you the most and take guidance from him. Sometimes the guru position is turned into personality cult, and that is very dangerous...

livingentity · 09-12-2003, 04:49 PM

Just because someone gets frustrated with the ISKCON system and throws up their hands and walks out does not mean lack of sincerity. It also does not mean that they stop studying, chanting, praying to Krsna and Prabhupada etc.