"I still don't think, that ritvik is bhogus, becose it was started by Srila Prabhupada and he never said that it should finish when He's physical body is finish. Instead he told that we should not make any changes in ISKCON. "
- audarya lila was clearly demonstrating that this assumption is not true... please, for ypur spiritual life, do the main thing that prabhupada teach to us.. do not be dogmatic, judge with guru, shastra, sadhu and accept the demonstrations when they are given to you... otherwise it is not a serious student behaviour

"But also I think that if somebody wants to take initiation from some disciple of Srila Prabhupada there is nothing wrong with that if that guru is uttama-adhikari"
- yes, but the ritvik assumption is based on the theory that tere's not and never will be one devotee fit to be a spiritual diksa master

so if you admit that it is possible to take the shelter of a present, living guru you are against the ritvik theory

(and it is very good!!)

" But for me it's more save just to take shelter from Srila Prabhupada, becose I'm not so advanced that I can see who is uttama and who is something else. "
- if you are close to the possibility that krsna and prabhupada will send to you, if you are sterious, a real pure devoteee......... it is possible that they will never send

so .. please... have doubts!!!!

ehem.. "closed" and "serious"

I agree with Audarya-lila's assessment of that "refutation." So far, despite my friendship with many of them and my sympathy for many of their complaints about ISKCON's leadership, I've seen nothing from the ritvik proponents that actually makes their case. There are just too many holes and too many weaknesses. Audarya-lila mentioned their assertion that Tusta Krishna was an upstart. History rather puts the lie to that assertion. Although he made many (hundreds? thousands?) of devotees around the world over the years, he declined to initiate them himself. Instead, he brought them to his friend and siksha guru, Siddhasvarupananda. Doesn't exactly sound like a brash upstart to me.

Haribol, yes, this is a better proposal. I remember back in the old days, when a devotee was given his brahmana thread, Srila Prabhupada made it very clear that this did NOT mean that the boy was now a brahmana. The ceremony was done in pure GURUKRPA, a special concession by Srila Prabhupada. He gave us all the tools we need to become vaisnava, to attain brahmanical qualifications, etc. This is a lifetime project, not a "done deal" like many may think.

The christian fundamentalist likes to say "not perfect, just forgiven" and then they go on to wallow in babyhood by being proud to be "born again". Well, we vaisnavas have a rebirth in spirit, but it is referred to as "twice born". Either way, not a done deal in any way shape or form. Remaining dependent babies may seem attractive, but this is the least of vaisnava personal rasa, this dependence. We are taught of further advancement, where we control God Himself, bind Him with ties of pure Love, this is our aspiration. Maturity must be there, we are born again, but we also must grow up a bit. Guru always give tools for spiritual growth, and this includes discernment, not a favorite words of most fundamentalists. We must translate instructions that are given in the heart, for this is how Srila Prabhupada personally instructs us. We act according to our realizations, and right and wrong is nobody's business except the disciple and the guru.

Anyway, good yakkin with you, glad to see a name, hare krsna, ys in cooperation, mahaksadasa (the lesser).