If Krishna knows - Page 2

02-13-2003, 05:59 PM

I don't think that Krsna's forknowledge of our actions comprimises the free will we have. It just means he knows how we will use it. He knows the extent of our conditioning and our karma. He knows the situations that will present themselves to us and further how we, the conscious jiva, will percieve that through the conditioning we have. Yet still we are free to choose our own course of action.

gHari · 02-13-2003, 09:16 PM

Mundane logic and Sri Krsna are often incompatible.

Krsna somehow arranges our separate existences for a good reason, namely His pleasure. Free will must be taken as axiomatic. If we find a paradox with our mundane logic that suggests that there really is no free will, then we must examine our premises, assumptions, and even the 'logic' process itself. Free will is a given.

We do not know just how Krsna knows the future. We seem to assume that He deduces it somehow, like a computer. We can only see one side of a block, yet Krsna knows that the unseen side of the block is painted red. How? Certainly it cannot be deduced.

I have speculated on this question before that Krsna can see the future, when it actually happens, as it actually happens. Our own free will shall produce the future, but that future whatever it may be can be seen (known) by Sri Krsna now. Total cognition. Cent percent cit; not to mention absolute sat and ananda. So cool, our sac-cid-ananda-vigraha Lord Syamasundara !

gHari

Priitaa · 02-14-2003, 01:31 AM

It is a mind boggler - to understand how, if someone knows all that will happen, that we still have freewill.

Of course I must clarify, I am not speaking of the nondeovtee who is living a karmic life, but of the initiated (or serious) devotee who is chanting 16 rounds daily, following the 4 regs, rising early for Mongala and the whole morning program, spending their entire day serving and preaching somehow or other, winding it up with evening arotika and Krishna Book. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] How many of us are doing that? My guess is we are all struggling. Those who are not doing it are, to various degrees, under karmic laws.

However, let's say everyone is doing all of this. In which case, how can such a person/devotee have freewill if Krishna knows their future? First I want to recap that we always have freewill to chose betewen Krishna or Maya, then add that we are also always under the illusion of MayaMaya or YogaMaya.

Secondly, with our mundane minds we can never understand fully how the Lord works. He can know things, and simultaneously not know them.

For example. I remember a story Acutyananda once told. He said in India the question was asked by Mayavadi's, "If Krishna is God, and God can do anything, then if He chose NOT to lift Goverdhana Hill, could He make it heavier than Himself? Could He NOT lift it?" The Vaisnava's replied, "Yes." To which the Mayavadi happily jumped all over that one and said, "Uh huh! Your God can no longer lift Goverdhana Hill, so He is no longer God!" Then the Vaisnava's casually replied, "But then, He will lift it." [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Confusing? To try to understand God with our pea brain IS confusinng. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Your fallen servant,
Prtha dd

Priitaa · 02-14-2003, 01:37 AM

Quote:

I think that Krsna's forknowledge of our actions comprimises the free will we have. It just means he knows how we will use it. He knows the extent of our conditioning and our karma. He knows the situations that will present themselves to us and further how we, the conscious jiva, will percieve that through the conditioning we have. Yet still we are free to choose our own course of action.

Just wanted to say, good point! Thank you. It reminds me of raising my children. Sometimes I would question their choices. Matter of fact, some of them downright got to me! But then it turned out to be a good choice, not bad. So here I was, the all knowing parent, not knowing. Of course God always knows. However the example is still there, since He is our loving parent, that He gives ---- GIVES us freewill. We may not karmically have it, we may not deserve it, but He can grant it when He wants.

In addition, it is through following Prabhupada's program that we achieve genuine freedom.

And gHari, lovely post! I am in agreement and lilke the way you presented it. Thank you.

YS,
Prtha dd

xxvvii · 03-09-2003, 03:12 AM

If somebody knows everything that is going to happen, then we can not have free will. Of course we feel that we have free will, but that is not the same as really having free will.
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Usually you're insatiable, while in trouble you're rejective for it.

For example. I remember a story Acutyananda once told. He said in India the question was asked by Mayavadi's, "If Krishna is God, and God can do anything, then if He chose NOT to lift Goverdhana Hill, could He make it heavier than Himself? Could He NOT lift it?" The Vaisnava's replied, "Yes." To which the Mayavadi happily jumped all over that one and said, "Uh huh! Your God can no longer lift Goverdhana Hill, so He is no longer God!" Then the Vaisnava's casually replied, "But then, He will lift it."
---------
Stupid q&a. God is there forever. Athing. is over there forever. Q.s neither create nor destroy athing. nor reach athing.'s essence.

O.Z. has a balloon & the girl needs the helps on her own feet, which is all the story means to convey.

Priitaa · 03-10-2003, 05:01 AM

Quote:

Stupid q&a.

It is not very nice of you to call my story stupid, tho YOUR answer was not so great, and quite mundane.

I was not the only one who found that story instructive, as it was told in class, thus many were there. I recall very clearly how well it was received by all of the assembled devotees. So maybe you are not getting the point, or don't want to. I hope the first. It makes a very good point for those who are trying to understand.

Nor are we interested in India as "over there." It was not a story about India, but about Krishna and His unlimited abilities beyond our conception.

Good luck.

YS,
Prtha dd

Narayanidd · 03-10-2003, 06:34 AM

My dear vaisnavas,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

While reading I came to the following verse and purport. I feel it relates well to this topic.

ch.5 text 15

nadatte kasyacit papam
na caiva sukrtam vibhu
ajnanenavrtam jnanam
tena muhyanti jantavah

Translation: Nor does the Supreme Lord assume anyone's sinful or pious activities. Embodied beings, however, are bewildered because of ignorance which covers their real knowledge.

Purport: The sanskrit word vibhu means the Supreme Lord who is full of knowledge, riches, strength, fame, beauty and renunciation. He is always satisfied in Nimself, undisterbed by sinful or pious activities. He does not create a particular situation for any living entity, but the living entity, bewildered by ignorance, desires to be put into certain conditions of life, and thereby his chain of reaction begins. A living entity is, by superior nature, full of knowledge. Nevertheless, he is prone to be influenced by ignorance due to his limited power. The Lord is omnipotent, but the living entity is not. The Lord is vibhu, or omniscient, but the living entity is anu, or atomic. Because he is a living soul, he has the capacity to desire by his free will. Such desire is fulfilled only by the omnipotent Lord. And so, when the living entity is bewildered in his desires, the Lord allows him to fulfill those desires, but the Lord is never responsible for the actions and reactions of the particular situation which maybe desired. Being in a bewildered condition, therefore, the embodied soul identifies himself with the circumstantial material body and becomes subjugated to the temporary misery and happiness of life. The Lord is the constant companion of the living entity as Paramatma, or the Supersoul, and therefore He can understand the desires of the individual soul, as one can smell the flavor of a flower by being near it. Desire is a subtle form of conditioning for the living entity. The Lord fulfills his desire as he deserves: Man proposes and God desposes. The individual is not, therefore, omnipotent in fulfilling his desires. The Lord, however, can fulfill all desires, and Lord being neutral to everyone, does not interfere with the desires of the minute independant living entities. However, when one desires Krsna, the Lord takes special care and encourages one to desire in such away that one can attain to Him and be eternally happy. The vedic hymns therefore declare, esa u hy eva sadhu karma karayati tam yam ebhyo lokebhya unninisate. esa u evasadhu karma karayati yam adho ninisate:"The Lord engages the living entity in pious activities so that he may be elevated. The Lord engages him in impious activities so that he may go to hell." (Kausitaki Upanisad 3.8)

ajno jantur aniso yam
atmanah sukha-duhkhayoh
isvara-prerito gacchet
svargam vasv abhram eva ca

"The living entity is completely dependent in his distress and happiness. By the will of the Supreme he can go to heaven ot hell, as a cloud is driven by air."

Therefore the embodied soul, by his immemorial desire to avoid Krsna consciousness, causes his own bewilderment. Consequently, although he is constitutioally eternal, blissful and cognizant, due to the littleness of his existence he forgets his constitutional position of service to the Lord and is thus entrapped by nescience. And, under the spell of ignorance, the living entity claims that the Lord is responsible for his conditional existence...

Hare Krsna!

Your servant,
Narayani d.d.

Priitaa · 03-10-2003, 11:56 AM

Thank you Narayani d.d. You hit the nail right on the head:

Quote:

Therefore the embodied soul, by his immemorial desire to avoid Krsna consciousness, causes his own bewilderment. Consequently, although he is constitutioally eternal, blissful and cognizant, due to the littleness of his existence he forgets his constitutional position of service to the Lord and is thus entrapped by nescience. And, under the spell of ignorance, the living entity claims that the Lord is responsible for his conditional existence...

I have been reading a few of your posts and you tend to stick with Srila Prabhupada's highest, transcendental instructions, which is a breath of fresh air always. You are a blessing to have on these forums. :-) Thanks! Take care and Hare Krishna.

YS,
Prtha dd

Narayanidd · 03-13-2003, 02:28 AM

Thank you for your words of incouragement! Throughout all of these discussion threads the answer always presents itself in Prabhupada's books. Most of the time I'll be doing my daily reading the later when I visit this forum my day's reading seems to apply somewhere.

Srila Prabhupada just continuing his preaching!!!!

Your servant,
Narayani d.d.

Kishalaya · 03-13-2003, 09:06 AM

Krishna knows all that is there, all that exists. If by
our free will, (some part of) our future has still not been
created, it does not exist, hence that which does not exist
need not be known. So Krishna is All Knowing because He
knows everything that can be known. That which does not
exist (such as the part of future that we can create by our
free will) does not have the property of being known. So
even if Krishna may not know a part of our future, that does
not create any fault in Him, because what He does not
know --- does not exist. Simple.

This argument is same as "Does Krishna know the limit to His
opulences?". If He knows, then there is a limit to His
opulences and if He does not know, then How is He All
Knowing. The answer is same. The limit to Krishna's
opulences does not exist. So the very question of its
getting known does not arise. As before, what Krishna does
not know, does not exist.

Kishalaya · 03-13-2003, 10:38 AM

There is great misconception about Sri Hari's All Perfect
Qualities.

God creating a rock He cannot lift. Is there an inherent
contradiction in the term "Omnipotent"? Western theistic
science has done some hair splitting which we need not
waste time on again:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homep...ramey/omni.htm

There are various nefarious arguments like the above, some
of which are:
Can God make 2+2=5?
Can God make an object exist and not exist at the same
time?
Can God make a square triangle?

Answer:
God can do things which have the quality of getting done!
God can create things that have the quality of getting
created!

So:
If something does not have the quality of getting done, then
not being able to do it is not a defect. e.g. making
2+2=5, making square traingles.

Similarly, if something does not have the quality of getting
created (in simple terms, that object does not have the
ability to exist), then not being able to create it not a
defect. e.g. God creating a rock which he cannot lift.

Sri Hari cannot be faulted for lacking the ability to create
things which cannot be created because there is no such
ability. Similarly Sri Hari cannot be at fault for lacking
the ability to do things which cannot be done, because no
such ability exists at all.

Priitaa · 03-14-2003, 01:41 AM

As I reread your post, it appears you are saying the same thing I am saying, tho it feels like the long route to China. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Anyway, if it helped someone, that's good.

Those who believe God can't create things that "can't" be created, are seeing materially. There is NOTHING God can't create, even if people can't fit it into boxes and triangles. :-)

This can't be understood with the mind, can't be understood thru mathematical calculations, can't be understood thru logic. This can only be understood with the heart and with the soul.

YS,
Prtha dd

Kishalaya · 03-14-2003, 03:33 AM

I see no fault in Sri Hari's Dignity if He cannot make
Govardhan so heavy that He can never lift it. Since what
Sri Hari cannot create, cannot exist.

It makes no difference to my faith if Sri Hari can or
cannot create things which cannot exist, but it makes
tremendous difference to my faith if Sri Hari cannot create
things which can exist.

Great are the souls who have natural faith in the Lord, but
for those, like me, who think whether He can create a rock
that He can never lift, while trying to chant His names,
it is imperative that all such buddhi doshas (defects of
intelligence) be killed by proper nyaya (logic) just as
Sri Hari uses His Sudarshan Chakra to kill demons.
Otherwise, it should be known that (samshay) doubt is a
killer of (shraddha) faith.

03-15-2003, 03:13 AM

My apologies, Kishalaya, as I initially misread your post. But, as mentioned, I reread it and saw you were making a similar point to mine. So my math quotes, etc., were not really in reference to you, as you were using them the right way. They are for those who choose to use them the opposite way.

Do what you need to do!

Thanks.

YS,
Prtha dd

09-22-2003, 09:05 PM

We shoudnt blame our problems on krsna. Krsna has given us free will. Sure he knows the outcome to whatever choice we make but the choice is ours. He just guides us to fullfill that desire of ours.

Hari DHam