Prove that the shastras / puranas / vedas are not made up

Ha ha ha

Allah is the Greatest god. Greater but not greatest is Jesus. Less than greater but great comes Zoraster.

I think too much of Puranas does this to people

In the end, it is a matter of the heart. The heart cries for perfect harmony. It is part of our synthesis. As the puranas state, we are inherently sat, chit, and ananda. The value of human life is that we can pursue the nature of ourselves and our relationship with our surroundings. Upon a solid foundation of harmony, one may build a beautiful home filled with nuance. However, without this foundation, no matter how beautiful the home it is destined to be rebuilt again and again. Spare nothing on the foundations. Then work from there.

If you beleive that why are you on this board?

Maybe you should try reading them? Somehow I doubt you have.

^Too much Maya does this to people^

The puranas were the experiences of someone who chose to pass them on. In fact everything revolves around what we know and what we choose to perceive.

If Ganesha being supreme needs to be proved through some puranic pramaana.. then the puranas being true also need to be proved. It is only fair. After all if you choose to keep asking for proofs, there is no answer finally. You will have to say that I heard it from my guru, he heard it from his guru etc.etc. It finally boils down to experience.

But the fact that each person seems to have different set of experiences itself removes all possibility of one truth and many untruths. Unless you truly believe that you are the enlightened ones and all other philosophies are phony. If that is how you think, then it borders on fanaticism and may <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> save you. The choice is finally ours. Either we have an open mind and listen to existence, or keep it closed and blindly believe a set of books.

The Actual problem is that you choose to believe one person's set of experiences but choose to reject another, just because it does not fit into your idea of right and wrong which is a sure shot way of limiting your range of experiences.

Finally this whole "My God better than your God" thing is absurd. As it is, there are a million sects and religions that are bickering and fighting with one another. a lot of blood has already been shed on this thing.
In <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">India</st1:country-region></st1:place> it was the shaivite vaishnavite thingy (which you people are successfully keeping alive), in the middle east, pagans versus muslims, then christian vs muslims, hindus versus christians, muslims versus hindus. although I am a seeker, i find religion is the cause for many of the world's ills.
Where as, if each was to his own, like the buddha said "Apa Devo Bhava" things would have been a lot simpler.

Even if we do consider puranas, they are at logger heads with one another. If it is believed that <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> worshipped a shiva linga...Immediately some krishna premi will say will say that God worships his devotee. Actually krshna is supreme.. Dont you see the stupidity of it all??

Talking about satvic and tamasic, Dont you see that it is vishnu who did most of the killing actually, the "tamasic activity" right from ravana to kamsa et all???? then where is satvic and where is rajasic and tamasic. All three need to exist if the earth needs to function. The Electron (rajasic) needs to go around the proton/ neutron (satvic) and finally collapse back into pure energy/matter (tamasic).

If this balance is lost then there cannot be the play of the divine.

I am sure that this post too will be deleted and my denied access as the moderator seems to be against anything that he and this ISKCON group believes. I really dont care. You people can continue scratching each other backs. I am out a here...................

Everything, but this, is a valid statement. How can this be stupid? Same thing goes with the Shaivites and Shaktis. All the puranas and upanishads end up saying the same thing, that is ParaBrahman delights in the pleasure of the devotee. Krsna worships Shiva, Shiva worships Krsna. How is this stupid? It makes perfect sense in a dynamic, never ending, pleasing realm of satisfaction.

The stupidity is in differentiating with name and form and saying this god is superior to that, on which this arguement is based.

I agree with you that this divine leela is what creates experiences in which the parabrahman rejoices.

Being the only guy in a Whole Universe is tough otherwise.

Being the only guy in a Whole Universe is tough otherwise.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::;
Translation:
Being a [COGNISANT VECTOR-POINT THAT IS 1/10,000TH THE SIZE OF THE TIP OF A HAIR] "ONE-IN-A-QUADRILLION-SQUARED-TO-THE-TENTH-POWER" in a Whole Universe [ONE OF THE COUNTLESS BRAHMANDAS THAT EMIT FROM MAHAVISHNUS SNORING] is EASY otherwise.

Again, join the school of fish in the deep blue [though better, but not as cute as penguins]--but then forget getting any Union benefits!

"All care and no responsibity."

I see your point.

The puranas make perfect sense to those who know them properly. There is no scripture that says Ganesha is the supreme.

If you don't accept the Vedic literatures how can you ascribe yourself to the religion, deities and practises that coem from them? It's sillyness. The Vedas are the work of Vyasadeva.

I recognise the validity of all religious experience, but where does the idea that Ganesha is the supreme lord come from? It's concoction. I'm not devalueing his religious experience, I'm questioning the conclusions he came to as a result of it.

Maybe Ganesha has visited this man and told him to beleive that, for some higher purpose maybe. Maybe, I don't know. Maybe he's just trolling.

There is nothing tamasic about the killing of the demons. You're continually making things up. I don't really understand this part of your post. Your post is confusing.

Om Ganeshaya Namah

So you do accept the scriptures or you don't?

If you accept the experience of Sanatana Dharma, but reject Vedic literature, then are you not drinking the milk but hating the cow?

Ganesh is the son of Siva. Siva expands from Visnu. So Ganesh = god? Kinda. Ganesha = supreme lord? Not really.

Ultimately there are a number of conclusions a person can come to from the scriptures, but I don't see anything to suggest Ganesha as being the supreme lord.

If this man can explain his posiition, what it is based on, and answer why there are so many verses contrary to his position, I will accept it as legitimate, even if i don't agree with it. He has done none of these, therefore I conclude it is concoction/trolling.

It is, as you say, down to our subjective experiences. We cannot know for certain by empirical knowledge what is truth and what isn't, and I think that is divine arrangement. However, to a small degree we can rule out some possiblities. It is in this spirit that I questioned his statement.

Om Purnam Adah Purnam Idam
Purnat Purnam Udacyate
Purnasya Purnam Adayah
Purnam Evavasisyate

My post will be confusing to a book worm. And who said that I need to subscribe to ISKCON version of truth to say what I say? I dont care about your version of truth. I dont even want to limit myself to the sanathana dharma. I believe in accepting all experiences that existence throws at me and float with it.
Truth as far as I am concerned is experiential. The God I have experienced has not come out from a book or even a set of books. It is the bliss you are within, without and everywhere.

If at all you meant what you said about "Ganesha telling this man for a higher purpose", then who are you to refute it ??? Are you greater than Ganesha??

Demons??? Krishna killed all and sundry... Remember the Mahabharatha war, Krishna was the root cause for the destruction of the entire Kaurava clan including innocent soldiers. He advised Arjuna to kill. Was Bhishma a Demon???
And even looking at the so called demons, if you refer to your own puranas, they were dwarapalakas of Mahavishnu and incarnated because of a curse. In any case I think Puranas were told to help people relate to God and do not represent actually what happened. I am sure you or your Ilk will jump on me and ask for a proof!!! The Only proof I have is that a lot of your puranas are illogical. Absurd. Only a fanatic / fool will believe them blindly. If you choose to belong to this category, then please feel free.

Hare Krsna

Divine arrangement ???? Then why rule out possibilities, do what you think is right and let the other gentleman who thinks Ganesha is supreme go on his way...

and assume that too is a "Divine Arrangement"

I'm simply asking him for some basis. Opinions are nothing without justification.

Krishna is responsible for the death of everyone. The people/demons he kills attain perfection.

Please substantiate how the Puranas are illogical, I'm interested.

I can't help feeling your constant attacks, which is what you have done saying 'stupid, fool' etc, put you into the fanatic category somewhat. I think you're attached to your impersonal conception to the point of craziness. Maybe in a similar way to the crazy Christians I'm sure you've come across. Maybe it's ego, wanting everyone else to be stupid compared to you? At any rate, I hope you aren't really like this in real life. People behave differently on the internet.

Yeah Right!! If Krishna Kills it is for Perfection, if some others deities kill it is Tamasic.

Keep your stuff going......

and by the way if you think saying "foolish and stupid" are being fanatical, you will find a lot of that in your literature themselves. I request you to look a little harder at the recorded talks and works of Prabhupada.

Crazy christians??? How Bigoted !! They just claim the superiority of Christ / Mary / God just like you claim Krishna.. Just the name differs. And by the way who told you I am an impersonalist?

About Ego... I am not naive to believe that I am a "Dasa". I know I have imperfections that make me human. The trouble is you while you people can dish it out to others, when it comes to taking criticism, your group seems to fare poorly.

in any case I do not want to continue this arguement beyond some point and would like to sign off.

And The Justifications you provide are flimsy.. They are not traceable in a foolproof manner. You have also been handed these from your guru and he from his guru and trust they are true because you trust your guru...

If You are justified in doing that so is this gentleman.

The Puranas hold relative measurements of how the universe is made up. When these measurements are put together, they can produce similar results as the modern astronomical method.

This would establish the superiority of the Puranas above all other scriptures, including the sruti, because it'll be scientific and empirical. All by using a completely different coordinate system to explain the universe and provide the same results. Try asking any other form of religion to do that, and they won't because they can't.