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TCM and Fractures

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I broke my right wrist (non-displaced radial Fx) and realized how

little I knew about non-western treatment methods and could use some

help in this regard!! Have been doing well with pain control via ashi

points, chi gong and needle w/ electrostim of LI-4,10,11, LU-5,6, SI-5

& 9, but am open to ideas and suggestions, especially as regards herbal

therapy. I am using my old standard of Arnica and ice all of which

helps.

 

I await your brilliant advice!

 

Bill

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Bill:

 

I like Yunnan Baiyao patches for injuries like this. You can put them on at

night and they last 12 hrs. I have had people in pain also use them in the day.

There is a limit per day on the box.

 

I like Ashi in the area of the pain, but also you can try the contralateral of

Dr. Tan. Can be very effective. A simple approach would be the same meridian

on the opposite ankle, e.g. For Triple Heater, use GB ashi points at the ankle

and above, mirroring it. If pain is on the LI line, also go after ST on ankle

and above, Ashi points. I like to do one treatment at a time, try one meridian,

if pain is still there, add the other meridian. (Keep this contralateral

treatment separate from the Ashi in the sight - surrounding the dragon -

treatment). You can find more detailed tx's on his website, and I found these

simple techniques to be very effective.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Anne

 

--

Anne C. Crowley, L.Ac., M.Ac., Dipl.Ac.

 

www.SouthernMDacupuncture.com

 

-------------- Original message ----------------------

" William Morse, D.C., FIACA " <dokkabill

> I broke my right wrist (non-displaced radial Fx) and realized how

> little I knew about non-western treatment methods and could use some

> help in this regard!! Have been doing well with pain control via ashi

> points, chi gong and needle w/ electrostim of LI-4,10,11, LU-5,6, SI-5

> & 9, but am open to ideas and suggestions, especially as regards herbal

> therapy. I am using my old standard of Arnica and ice all of which

> helps.

>

> I await your brilliant advice!

>

> Bill

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

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Bill, So sad you didn't use TCM to treat yourself. Here's a old recipe I

use for joining broken bones:

 

 

*Jie Gu Dan*

 

 

 

Dang Gui Wei 120 g

 

Ru Xiang, Mo Yao, Zi Ran Tong, Gu Sui Bu, Tao Ren, Da Huang, Xiong Huang,

Bai Ji 30 g

 

Xue Jie, Tu Bie Chong, San Qi, Chi Shao, Hong Hua, Er Cha 15 g

 

Bing Pian, Zhu Sha 6 g

 

She Xiang 1.5 g

 

 

 

All herbs are ground and made into capsules, take 6-8 capsules TID. Removes

blood stasis, repairs fracture and tissues.

 

 

 

You can also use an external Rx:

 

 

 

*Xiao Zhong Zhi Tong Gao* (Stop swelling and pain paste)

 

 

 

Jiang Huang, Qiang Huo, Gan Jiang, Zhi Zi, Mo Yao, Ru Xiang 1 portion each

 

 

 

Grind all herbs into a powder, then mix with Vaseline to form a paste, apply

on affected area. Removes blood stasis, subdues swelling, alleviates pain.

 

 

 

Joins bones, repairs sinews and ligaments.

 

 

 

I have studied Gu Shang Ke since my teenage years in Chinese martial arts.

Both Rx's are proven and have a great effect.

 

 

 

May your suffering end!

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:04 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA <

dokkabill wrote:

 

> I broke my right wrist (non-displaced radial Fx) and realized how

> little I knew about non-western treatment methods and could use some

> help in this regard!! Have been doing well with pain control via ashi

> points, chi gong and needle w/ electrostim of LI-4,10,11, LU-5,6, SI-5

> & 9, but am open to ideas and suggestions, especially as regards herbal

> therapy. I am using my old standard of Arnica and ice all of which

> helps.

>

> I await your brilliant advice!

>

> Bill

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

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Bill,

 

Most acupuncturists are poor acupuncturists.

 

Of course, you should use distal needling methods on needling the unaffected

side. I'll assume it is the LI and Lu channels involved in your right

wrist. If so, needle the left leg Spleen 6, 8, 9, and St 34, 40, 41.

Bloodletting on Lu 5 and LI 11 on the affected limb is also good.

 

Good luck.

 

Best regards,

 

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac., QME

 

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 9:04 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA <

dokkabill wrote:

 

> I broke my right wrist (non-displaced radial Fx) and realized how

> little I knew about non-western treatment methods and could use some

> help in this regard!! Have been doing well with pain control via ashi

> points, chi gong and needle w/ electrostim of LI-4,10,11, LU-5,6, SI-5

> & 9, but am open to ideas and suggestions, especially as regards herbal

> therapy. I am using my old standard of Arnica and ice all of which

> helps.

>

> I await your brilliant advice!

>

> Bill

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

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Thanks for the cheap shot Robert.

 

treating the affected side is also appropriate and effective. treating

distal points of liver spleen and gsllbladder did little for pain, but

will be of great effect later.

 

Sometimes what you think you know doesn't work.

 

Bill

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Excellent advice Anne. I have used most of it with great success.

 

Thank you.

 

Bill

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Bill,

 

No cheap shot meant for you or anyone in particular. Most acupuncturists

have no reason and logic guiding them for choosing points other than

empirical or " cookbook " approach. Its the way TCM is taught in this

country. Its a fact.

 

Miriam Lee said, " If the baby is crying, don't spank it. " In your case, if

your limb is injured, no sense in further needling the affected side, just

needle the contralateral side. And if you believe in the channels or not,

it will work. As I said, I will assume that the affected channels on your

right wrist are the Lung and LI, so using this reasoning, we select the Sp

and St points based on function and correspondence location.

If you don't use this logical reasoning, how are you selecting the points?

 

Regarding your statement, " Sometimes what you think you know doesn't work " ,

I am in full agreement. To me, function is more important than

form, application is my guide, and experience beats experiment.

 

Best regards,

 

 

On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 11:21 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA <

dokkabill wrote:

 

> Thanks for the cheap shot Robert.

>

> treating the affected side is also appropriate and effective. treating

> distal points of liver spleen and gsllbladder did little for pain, but

> will be of great effect later.

>

> Sometimes what you think you know doesn't work.

>

> Bill

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

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Robert:

 

After sustaining the injury I realized I didn't know how to treat it

properly and went to the books in my library. Interestingly enough

and frustratingly for me, almost all address " non-fracture " acute

traumatic injuries. Only in the Neijing could I find any reference

to broken bones. So my first inclination was to treat the symptoms

with ice and immbilization, which was aided by splinting in the ER

and try some general pain relief to avoid pain killers.

 

When I got home (broke it skiing) I balanced my meridians via tsing

and luo points with good effect. Then I tried the opposites and

distal points and channels (SP ST) with LU 5 and LI 4, 10 on the

opposite side and remaned in some pain even with electro stim.

 

I basically began treatment of a " Gu Bi " syndrome of the wrist bones.

 

I decided to " run the channels " along both arms in the ancient

manner, treating the " active " points and " removing heat " near the

trauma site all with excellent effect. I have since worked the Xi-

cleft, luo and local points as indicated, primarily on the effected

side.

 

" Spanking the baby " as you put it worked quite nicely in the acute

phase. My sources for that were Zhang Dengbu'a " Difficult Cases " ,

Shanghai Universities " Acupucure and Moxibustion " , Maoshing Ni's " The

Yellow Emperor's Classic " , Mao Qunhui's " Effective Points Therapy " ,

and my acquired knowledge.

 

I had to go for immediate relief with needles because working channel

theory didn't cut it and I didn't have anything else in the Chinese

Medicine or herbal realm (except Arnica) which is why I started this

tract.

 

By-the-way, thank you for your excellent herbal information. I see

my Acupuncturist tomorrow and will acquire the herbs for your

suggested formulas. This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks

again for that.

 

Oh, and way-by-the-way, I am typing with my middle, index and ring

fingers today (just over 72 hrs post)! In a splint of course!

 

bill

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Bill,

 

My point is to identify the channels involved first, then select the proper

points. Jing Well and Luo points work great, but Shu Stream and Xi Cleft

points would have worked better, combined with Ying Spring points for the

affected channels.

 

What are the affected channels on your broken wrist?

 

Once you answer this question, select the Ying Spring, Shu Stream and Xi

Cleft points of each channel. Then needle these points on the opposite arm,

or use the Same Channel name (Tong Ming Jing) leg points.

 

Good to have Yunnan Bai Yao, Zheng Gu Shui, 701 Die Da Yao Gao patches and

other topicals for trauma in an emergency kit.

 

BTW, this is not Gu Bi - this is Gu Shang!

 

Best wishes for your speedy recovery.

 

On Tue, Apr 15, 2008 at 9:59 AM, William Morse, D.C., FIACA <

dokkabill wrote:

 

> Robert:

>

> After sustaining the injury I realized I didn't know how to treat it

> properly and went to the books in my library. Interestingly enough

> and frustratingly for me, almost all address " non-fracture " acute

> traumatic injuries. Only in the Neijing could I find any reference

> to broken bones. So my first inclination was to treat the symptoms

> with ice and immbilization, which was aided by splinting in the ER

> and try some general pain relief to avoid pain killers.

>

> When I got home (broke it skiing) I balanced my meridians via tsing

> and luo points with good effect. Then I tried the opposites and

> distal points and channels (SP ST) with LU 5 and LI 4, 10 on the

> opposite side and remaned in some pain even with electro stim.

>

> I basically began treatment of a " Gu Bi " syndrome of the wrist bones.

>

> I decided to " run the channels " along both arms in the ancient

> manner, treating the " active " points and " removing heat " near the

> trauma site all with excellent effect. I have since worked the Xi-

> cleft, luo and local points as indicated, primarily on the effected

> side.

>

> " Spanking the baby " as you put it worked quite nicely in the acute

> phase. My sources for that were Zhang Dengbu'a " Difficult Cases " ,

> Shanghai Universities " Acupucure and Moxibustion " , Maoshing Ni's " The

> Yellow Emperor's Classic " , Mao Qunhui's " Effective Points Therapy " ,

> and my acquired knowledge.

>

> I had to go for immediate relief with needles because working channel

> theory didn't cut it and I didn't have anything else in the Chinese

> Medicine or herbal realm (except Arnica) which is why I started this

> tract.

>

> By-the-way, thank you for your excellent herbal information. I see

> my Acupuncturist tomorrow and will acquire the herbs for your

> suggested formulas. This is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks

> again for that.

>

> Oh, and way-by-the-way, I am typing with my middle, index and ring

> fingers today (just over 72 hrs post)! In a splint of course!

>

> bill

>

>

>

 

 

 

--

Robert Chu, PhD, L.Ac. QME

chusauli

 

See my webpages at: www.chusaulei.com

 

 

 

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I treated 2 patients with broken bones, both of which were supposed

to have surgery and one also needing a bone graft. I did needles

above and below the fracture, with electrical stim attached to

needles above, running to below (through the break). Neither had to

have surgery. case #1 was a cyclist, who fell off his bike for the

2nd time and broke his collar bone in the same exact place. He was

seeing the orthopedic doc for the university of texas athletes, who

told him he needed surgery and a bone graft. Said doc was also very

disparaging about acupcunture, but since he was already my patient

for a motor sensory problem wm could do nothing for that actually

responded quite well to acupuncture, he came to see me anyway for the

broken bone. We did 2 txs a week for a month. When he returned to

orthopedist, he was very surprised to see his xrays and told him they

wouldn't need to do a bone graft or surgery. Pt was pleased and

stopped seeing me. When he went back for his 2 month check up, he

still had some ache in the break. When the doc put up his xrays he

said, " It looks like the healing process stopped dead in it's tracks

since the last time I saw you..... " He called me from the doctor's

office hallway to schedule another appointment. I treated once a

week till the ache stopped. #2 case- single mom broke her ankle

playing soccer. Doctor told her she must have surgery. She refused

due to a 5 year old child at home. he told her she was not being a

good mother by not having the surgery. I treated once a week for a

month or a little more, and when she went back he told her that it

had healed far better than he expected and that she did not need to

have surgery after all. good luck, Laura

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