injuries and Ashtanga

Hello all,

I am a relatively recent addition to this email group. I too have been reading and watching
these conversations, but this is my first post.

A quick note about myself. I have been practicing yoga for over 10 years. I have received
instruction in Viniyoga, Iyengar and Ashtanga. I have been teaching for 6 years. In
addition to teaching yoga, for my profession I am a Shiatsu practitioner (Oriental
medicine/Japanese bodywork) and also practice deep tissue/myofacial massage.. My life's
calling revolves around the healing of the whole self through the doorway of the body.

My experience of Ashtanga Yoga taught in the states is presented in many different ways.
Not all of them taking into consideration all eight limbs. Many times emphasis is placed
on the asanas, without the student having enough awareness of self to avoid injury.

As a teacher myself I know that is easy to get focused just on what you are teaching
(asana/pranayama) and forget how your background and experience of the other limbs
shapes and supports that practice and understanding.

Yama - abstentions
Niyama - observances
Asana - Postures of the body
Pranayama - Control of prana or vital breath
Pratyahara - Abstraction; "is that by which the senses do not come into contact with their
objects and, as it were, follow the nature of the mind." - Vyasa
Dharana - Fixing the attention on a single object; concentration
Dhyana - Meditation
Samadhi - Super-conscious state

Another thing I observe is that when I am teacing students a yinyasa flow, by its nature the
emphasis is on the breath and tempo - leaving no room for instruction of poses or
correction of allignment. I just spent 5 days in Miami Beach, Florida last week at the Art of
Vinyasa Conference and there was much discussion about this, and how to include
instruction in a vinyasa yoga class. One way these two teaching styles can be bridged is to
offer the instruction and attention to alignment first, and then use the vinyasa sequence as
application of the increased understanding.

OK here I come around to my point - without instruction and deeper body awareness the
asana sequence could continue to reinforce bad habits and compensations to the point of
imbalance and injury. "Practice, Practice, Practice" only works if you have good form. To
make sure you have good form, you should be working with an instructor that has deep
understanding of the anatomy of asana, and be able to apply it to your individual body.

That being said. As for sciatica, it comes from one of two sources - compression of the
lumbar spine, or as someone else already mentioned, the tightening of the piriformis
muscle in the lateral hip rotators (outer hip). The Sun salute A, sun salute B, and primary
series do not actively address the lateral hips in a way that will relieve sciatica. In fact
many ofthe poses with external rotation of the hip will aggrivate it. Only a few poses of
the intermediate series actively address tightness in the lateral rotators. So our Ashtanga
practice may need to be supplemented or modified to address our individual needs.

As for strain on the shoulders and rotator cuff attachments - In any and every pose when
our hands touch the floor, most people naturally allow their weight to shift to the outside
edge of the hand. This is the weakest, most vulnerable part of the hand/wrist leading to
strain on the deltoid and rotator cuff. The strongest part of the hand is the base of the
index finger and the mound of muscle at the base of the thumb. If you shift your weight
to the inner edge of the palm you will align your bones in a way that is easier for your
shoulder and strengthens your bicep (so your deltoid isn't doing all of the work)

Of course without seeing your practice, I don't know for sure where the imbalance or
injury is coming from. However you can also become more familiar with your body and it's
compensations with regular bodywork. Effective therapeutic bodywork when done in
conjunction with a yoga practice can be used not only for diagnosis, but also treatment of
long standing physical issues.

Namaste,
Patricia

Patricia,
Excellent explanation of the problems and injuries and how to
correct/improve them through proper posture and appropriate asanas. Thank
you so much for the the expert input on it. I would just like to know which
postures from the advanced series would improve sciatica conditions and do
you think that people should do them before the practice or during or after?

And I agree, ashtanga yoga is not just asanas and Practice, Practice,
Practice, but as the name already tells us, composed of 8 parts, and we
should know and implement all of them either through the practice or/and in
a daily life.

Greetings from sunny Beijing
Diana

http://www.suryasakti.org/china




From: Patricia
Reply-To:
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2006 16:48:33 -0000
To:
Subject: [Ashtanga Yoga] injuries and Ashtanga





Hello all,

I am a relatively recent addition to this email group. I too have been
reading and watching
these conversations, but this is my first post.

A quick note about myself. I have been practicing yoga for over 10 years.
I have received
instruction in Viniyoga, Iyengar and Ashtanga. I have been teaching for 6
years. In
addition to teaching yoga, for my profession I am a Shiatsu practitioner
(Oriental
medicine/Japanese bodywork) and also practice deep tissue/myofacial massage.
My life's
calling revolves around the healing of the whole self through the doorway of
the body.

My experience of Ashtanga Yoga taught in the states is presented in many
different ways.
Not all of them taking into consideration all eight limbs. Many times
emphasis is placed
on the asanas, without the student having enough awareness of self to avoid
injury.

As a teacher myself I know that is easy to get focused just on what you are
teaching
(asana/pranayama) and forget how your background and experience of the other
limbs
shapes and supports that practice and understanding.

Yama - abstentions
Niyama - observances
Asana - Postures of the body
Pranayama - Control of prana or vital breath
Pratyahara - Abstraction; "is that by which the senses do not come into
contact with their
objects and, as it were, follow the nature of the mind." - Vyasa
Dharana - Fixing the attention on a single object; concentration
Dhyana - Meditation
Samadhi - Super-conscious state

Another thing I observe is that when I am teacing students a yinyasa flow,
by its nature the
emphasis is on the breath and tempo - leaving no room for instruction of
poses or
correction of allignment. I just spent 5 days in Miami Beach, Florida last
week at the Art of
Vinyasa Conference and there was much discussion about this, and how to
include
instruction in a vinyasa yoga class. One way these two teaching styles can
be bridged is to
offer the instruction and attention to alignment first, and then use the
vinyasa sequence as
application of the increased understanding.

OK here I come around to my point - without instruction and deeper body
awareness the
asana sequence could continue to reinforce bad habits and compensations to
the point of
imbalance and injury. "Practice, Practice, Practice" only works if you have
good form. To
make sure you have good form, you should be working with an instructor that
has deep
understanding of the anatomy of asana, and be able to apply it to your
individual body.

That being said. As for sciatica, it comes from one of two sources -
compression of the
lumbar spine, or as someone else already mentioned, the tightening of the
piriformis
muscle in the lateral hip rotators (outer hip). The Sun salute A, sun
salute B, and primary
series do not actively address the lateral hips in a way that will relieve
sciatica. In fact
many ofthe poses with external rotation of the hip will aggrivate it. Only
a few poses of
the intermediate series actively address tightness in the lateral rotators.
So our Ashtanga
practice may need to be supplemented or modified to address our individual
needs.

As for strain on the shoulders and rotator cuff attachments - In any and
every pose when
our hands touch the floor, most people naturally allow their weight to shift
to the outside
edge of the hand. This is the weakest, most vulnerable part of the
hand/wrist leading to
strain on the deltoid and rotator cuff. The strongest part of the hand is
the base of the
index finger and the mound of muscle at the base of the thumb. If you shift
your weight
to the inner edge of the palm you will align your bones in a way that is
easier for your
shoulder and strengthens your bicep (so your deltoid isn't doing all of the
work)

Of course without seeing your practice, I don't know for sure where the
imbalance or
injury is coming from. However you can also become more familiar with your
body and it's
compensations with regular bodywork. Effective therapeutic bodywork when
done in
conjunction with a yoga practice can be used not only for diagnosis, but
also treatment of
long standing physical issues.

Namaste,
Patricia

Thanks for the class Patricia. Deep explanation of the eight limbs,
you must have read a lot.

But really, you are not an ashtanga practitioner, at least not a
traditional one. Still, you are giving instructions on an ashtanga
board? Uhmm....Let me explain something to you. To know ashtanga one
must practice ashtanga, not a little ashtanga, a little vinyasa flow
and a little other stuff. Plus you must study with traditional
teachers and follow the traditional ashtanga (indian) method for
some years. Which you obviously do not, since you explain clearly
you teach other stuff and also your explanations may very well be in
line with iyengar or viniyoga approach but do not fit in ashtanga.
All that "talking instruction" you mention are not encouraged in our
practice. That is why we do mysore style practice you know, silent,
deep and personal. We do not encourage iyengar alignment either. If
some ashtangis choose to do it because it fits their bodies that is
up to them. But it is not what is taught at AYRI. So please I beg
you to stop confusing people here searching for ashtanga practice
advice with ideas from other methods.

A.

Very Nicely put Patricia. I have been practicing Yoga for 8 years
and teaching for 4 years. I am glad to see another address that
Ashantga Yoga in the west does not always reflect all 8 limbs and
I've always found that interesting being that Ashtanga, literally
means 8 limbs.

Thank You,
Lotus

hello!
I teach yoga (Ashtanga ,Iyengar and Yoga Nidra) in Argentina ,and agree with you in everything what you say about yoga classes,when I was reading what you wrote I felt it was like listening to myself!!
I think that yoga teachers must always consider all aspects of yoga practice,not only asanas,and must be sensible enough to make the necesary changes in the way of teaching according to the personal needs of the pupil,in order to avoid injuries and strains in the body.
HARI OM
TAT SAT

Lucia Otero
International Yoga Teacher

Hi Patricia,
Thanks a lot for your e-mail. Nicely writen.
Namaste
Anis

>From Andiniji:
>...but it is not what is taught at AYRI. So please I beg
>you to stop confusing people here searching for ashtanga practice
>advice with ideas from other methods.

Dear Andiniji,
so why is it called ashtanga then?? If we don¹t practice all eight limbs but
just asana, it should be called Œone limb¹ yoga... (I think you¹re confusing
this aspect of her comment with Œother¹ styles of yoga)

does knowledge of anatomy (not to be confused with Iyengar yoga, like you
did) contradicts working on our bodies??? Why would that knowledge hurt??

Throughout my many years of ashtanga yoga practice, I have found that only
teachers who are not knowledgeable enough, go with the method of ³practice,
practice, practice² They are usually either too lazy or too ignorant to
learn more about what they are doing... I do understand the Œzen¹ approach
to it, but don¹t scold others who want to learn more... If you get a
physician to do ashtanga he will see it completely different than a
psychiatrist, philosopher or an artist... We all see it through the eyes of
what we do or what our interest is. And knowing anatomy of the human body is
BASICS for anyone who is laying hands on a yoga practitioner.

What I¹m trying to point out is that we are all free to see it through our
own eyes, so your comment is just as right for some people as Patricia¹s is
for others. And it all still Ashtanga yoga!!

Peace!
diana

andiniji

Wow...what an amazingly inappropriate and revealing message. I'm sure you didn't mean
to tell us quite so much about yourself. Anyone with a modicum of maturity and life
experience will be able to tell a great deal about this person from this one email. It seems
that "A" has some major issues around exclusivity and knowledge. Which strikes me as
odd, since he or she doesn't even seem to understand - or at least practice - the
fundamentals of ANY yogic philosophy.

Bad form - in ANY practice. Patricia - and everyone who had to read this - deserves an
apology.

namaste,

Kenn


--- In ashtangayoga (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, andiniji wrote:
>
> Thanks for the class Patricia. Deep explanation of the eight limbs,
> you must have read a lot.
>
> But really, you are not an ashtanga practitioner, at least not a
> traditional one. Still, you are giving instructions on an ashtanga
> board? Uhmm....Let me explain something to you. To know ashtanga one
> must practice ashtanga, not a little ashtanga, a little vinyasa flow
> and a little other stuff. Plus you must study with traditional
> teachers and follow the traditional ashtanga (indian) method for
> some years. Which you obviously do not, since you explain clearly
> you teach other stuff and also your explanations may very well be in
> line with iyengar or viniyoga approach but do not fit in ashtanga.
> All that "talking instruction" you mention are not encouraged in our
> practice. That is why we do mysore style practice you know, silent,
> deep and personal. We do not encourage iyengar alignment either. If
> some ashtangis choose to do it because it fits their bodies that is
> up to them. But it is not what is taught at AYRI. So please I beg
> you to stop confusing people here searching for ashtanga practice
> advice with ideas from other methods.
>
> A.
>

Yes, I agree. I was going to send a comment but after typing decided
perhaps it was better to just leave it alone. Then again, for
Patricia....want to say that not all of us "ashtangis" think so narrow
mindedly and we don't mind hearing comments from yogis from other styles of
hatha yoga. Thanks! We can chose to read the emails or not without
dismissing another persons comments or suggestions.

Namaste,

Linda



Linda Munro
Ashtanga Paris
www.ashtangayogaparis.fr





From: "kenndeigh"
Reply-To: ashtangayoga (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
To: ashtangayoga (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Subject: [Ashtanga Yoga] Re: injuries and Ashtanga
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 16:25:52 -0000

andiniji

Wow...what an amazingly inappropriate and revealing message. I'm sure you
didn't mean
to tell us quite so much about yourself. Anyone with a modicum of maturity
and life
experience will be able to tell a great deal about this person from this one
email. It seems
that "A" has some major issues around exclusivity and knowledge. Which
strikes me as
odd, since he or she doesn't even seem to understand - or at least practice
- the
fundamentals of ANY yogic philosophy.

Bad form - in ANY practice. Patricia - and everyone who had to read this -
deserves an
apology.

namaste,

Kenn


--- In ashtangayoga (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, andiniji wrote:
>
> Thanks for the class Patricia. Deep explanation of the eight limbs,
> you must have read a lot.
>
> But really, you are not an ashtanga practitioner, at least not a
> traditional one. Still, you are giving instructions on an ashtanga
> board? Uhmm....Let me explain something to you. To know ashtanga one
> must practice ashtanga, not a little ashtanga, a little vinyasa flow
> and a little other stuff. Plus you must study with traditional
> teachers and follow the traditional ashtanga (indian) method for
> some years. Which you obviously do not, since you explain clearly
> you teach other stuff and also your explanations may very well be in
> line with iyengar or viniyoga approach but do not fit in ashtanga.
> All that "talking instruction" you mention are not encouraged in our
> practice. That is why we do mysore style practice you know, silent,
> deep and personal. We do not encourage iyengar alignment either. If
> some ashtangis choose to do it because it fits their bodies that is
> up to them. But it is not what is taught at AYRI. So please I beg
> you to stop confusing people here searching for ashtanga practice
> advice with ideas from other methods.
>
> A.
>

__________________________________________________ _______________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!
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Didn't Krishnamacharya teach both Iyengar and Jois? I would hope that
yogis of either school would at least come from a place of respect
for both.

And for me -- I'm just happy when someone finds yoga [period]. As
long as they are doing their best to be true to their path. We all do
our best with where we are. I do my best not to judge.

N'
Di

Well said Di!

Yogababe



--- In ashtangayoga (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, "Diane Scobie" wrote:
>
> Didn't Krishnamacharya teach both Iyengar and Jois? I would hope that
> yogis of either school would at least come from a place of respect
> for both.
>
> And for me -- I'm just happy when someone finds yoga [period]. As
> long as they are doing their best to be true to their path. We all do
> our best with where we are. I do my best not to judge.
>
> N'
> Di
>

Hello All

Any thoughts on the benefits of an arthroscopy to 'tidy up' torn menisci in knees (acquired through a zealous approach and adjustment in Marichyasana D 5 years ago). Knees don't bother me to walk around on generally and I am doing a full practice so I don't see any reason to go under the knife, but I've heard you can get arthritis problems later in life?

yoga bear

Originally Posted by Patricia Hello all, I am a relatively recent addition to this email group. I too have been reading and watching these conversations, but this is my first post. A quick note about myself. I have been practicing yoga for over 10 years. I have received instruction in Viniyoga, Iyengar and Ashtanga. I have been teaching for 6 years. In addition to teaching yoga, for my profession I am a Shiatsu practitioner (Oriental medicine/Japanese bodywork) and also practice deep tissue/myofacial massage.. My life's calling revolves around the healing of the whole self through the doorway of the body. My experience of Ashtanga Yoga taught in the states is presented in many different ways. Not all of them taking into consideration all eight limbs. Many times emphasis is placed on the asanas, without the student having enough awareness of self to avoid injury. As a teacher myself I know that is easy to get focused just on what you are teaching (asana/pranayama) and forget how your background and experience of the other limbs shapes and supports that practice and understanding. Yama - abstentions Niyama - observances Asana - Postures of the body Pranayama - Control of prana or vital breath Pratyahara - Abstraction; "is that by which the senses do not come into contact with their objects and, as it were, follow the nature of the mind." - Vyasa Dharana - Fixing the attention on a single object; concentration Dhyana - Meditation Samadhi - Super-conscious state Another thing I observe is that when I am teacing students a yinyasa flow, by its nature the emphasis is on the breath and tempo - leaving no room for instruction of poses or correction of allignment. I just spent 5 days in Miami Beach, Florida last week at the Art of Vinyasa Conference and there was much discussion about this, and how to include instruction in a vinyasa yoga class. One way these two teaching styles can be bridged is to offer the instruction and attention to alignment first, and then use the vinyasa sequence as application of the increased understanding. OK here I come around to my point - without instruction and deeper body awareness the asana sequence could continue to reinforce bad habits and compensations to the point of imbalance and injury. "Practice, Practice, Practice" only works if you have good form. To make sure you have good form, you should be working with an instructor that has deep understanding of the anatomy of asana, and be able to apply it to your individual body. That being said. As for sciatica, it comes from one of two sources - compression of the lumbar spine, or as someone else already mentioned, the tightening of the piriformis muscle in the lateral hip rotators (outer hip). The Sun salute A, sun salute B, and primary series do not actively address the lateral hips in a way that will relieve sciatica. In fact many ofthe poses with external rotation of the hip will aggrivate it. Only a few poses of the intermediate series actively address tightness in the lateral rotators. So our Ashtanga practice may need to be supplemented or modified to address our individual needs. As for strain on the shoulders and rotator cuff attachments - In any and every pose when our hands touch the floor, most people naturally allow their weight to shift to the outside edge of the hand. This is the weakest, most vulnerable part of the hand/wrist leading to strain on the deltoid and rotator cuff. The strongest part of the hand is the base of the index finger and the mound of muscle at the base of the thumb. If you shift your weight to the inner edge of the palm you will align your bones in a way that is easier for your shoulder and strengthens your bicep (so your deltoid isn't doing all of the work) Of course without seeing your practice, I don't know for sure where the imbalance or injury is coming from. However you can also become more familiar with your body and it's compensations with regular bodywork. Effective therapeutic bodywork when done in conjunction with a yoga practice can be used not only for diagnosis, but also treatment of long standing physical issues. Namaste, Patricia