Re: Why Existence /Consciousness?

--- In advaitin (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, "Sowmy" wrote:
> List Moderator's Note: We wholeheartedly welcome you to the list.
We look forward to your active participation with thoughtful
questions and insights. We also recommend that you to state a brief
introduction about yourself which will be quite useful for the fellow
members to know your background and help them to answer your
questions more thoughtfully.
>
>

Thanks a lot for your nice words.

I was born and brought up in Chennai, India. Im right now working as
a Software Engineer in an MNC in Bangalore. Science (esp. Physics)
has been a fascination for me, right from childhood. Im very much
interested in the principle/philosophy of non-duality, which prompted
me to join this group.

Thats about my physical existence, in a nutshell. :-)

Hoping to be an active contributor in this forum.

Namaste Sowmy.

We have to look at your questions from a different angle outlined in
the following steps:

Sep 1

Do you accept that you have asked these questions? If your answer is
yes (it can never be otherwise), then you have accepted your
existence.

Step 2

Do you know who or what you are? You can't answer that because you
will have to go into an infinite regress as all your conclusions
about you are bound to be objectifications by `something' at the end,
which you really are. Even the seeming infinite regress is an
objectification to that `something'.

Step 3

There is no question of knowing that `something' because if you know
it that again becomes an objectification, something other than you,
the Knower.

Step 3

Yet, you cannot escape the fact that you exist behind all this. That
is the Consciousness of Advaita (CHIT). Since that `something' IS,
it is called by the name Existence (SAT).

Step 4

If you thus accept Consciousness as the `something' that exists at
the end as the Knower in you, then you cannot escape the conclusion
that Consciousness Is, everything else is. Why? Because if you are
not there, the world is not. Hard to accept? Ok. Visualize a
situation where life has become extinct in this universe. What will
remain? A barren pack of mass and energy? If you say yes, then the
inevitable question pops up. Who knows that barren pack? That means
the Universe cannot have an existence without a perceiving
intelligence (Consciousness) like gold ornaments cannot exist without
gold. Gold is, ornaments are.

Step 5

Advaita tells you that you are THAT Consciousness because of which
all THIS is. Then, are there a THAT and THIS as separate entities?

Step 6

It looks that way because we perceive a universe populated by
different entities including our body, mind, intellect, time, space
etc. all separate from the `something' that knows them. But from
Step 4, we find that without THAT, THIS can't be. That would mean
THIS is THAT. There are no two things. If there aren't two, what
remains, irrespective of whether you call it THAT or THIS, ought to
be ONE WITHOUT A SECOND. Since it is ONE WITHOUT A SECOND, it has
nothing external to it. Since it has no outside, it has no inside
too. It is limitlessness, spacelessness and therefore timelessness.
That is FULLNESS (Ananda) – where there are no more any wants or
deficiencies.

Step 7

That means there is an error in your current perception – an
ignorance due to which you fail to perceive the actual oneness in
diversity. Call it mAyA. Why there is mAyA is your question.
Well, it is there? Why worry about its genesis? Just accept it.
When you thus see through the error and realize your ONE-WITHOUT-A-
SECONDNESS, that is knowledge (jnAna). In the fire of that
knowledge, your ignorance vanishes without a trace. You then know
your true nature. When you have truly realized thus, there is nothing
you have to do. You don't then ask any more questions. You are
FULLNESS (ANANDA) that is EXISTENCE (SAT) as well as CONSCIOUSNESS
(CHIT). These are all synonyms for the same thing.

Hope this helps.

PraNAms.

Madathil Nair
________________________

--- In advaitin (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, "Sowmy" wrote:
>
> 1) Why Existence/Consciousness in the first place? Whatz the point?
>
> 2) If at all "Existence", why manifestation?
>
> 3) If at all "Manifestation", why manifest as mind?
>
> 4) If at all "Mind", why ignorance/illusion/maya ?
>
> 5) If at all "Maya", why the consciousness has to identify itself
> with Maya, forgetting its true identity?
> Have a nice day!

Sri Nair, Thanks a lot for taking the pain to answer my questions.

Basically i had asked these questions because i read Sri profvk
mention in the "Logic of Spirituality" discussion thread
that "Science tries to explain 'how' things happen the way they
happen, but spirituality explains 'why' things happen". This is "why"
i raised all those "why" questions ), hoping to get some pointers
from vedopanishands. ( if at all these questions were dealt with in
them ). I strongly feel that Consciousness is there for some valid
reason. Not to simply "be" there.

And i have never questioned the existence/consciousness. We all know
its presence (i.e. our presence). But i was just kinda wondering why
it is there? Why something has to exist? Why cant there be no one to
perceive and nothing to be perceived...total nothingness...then there
will no question of my mind/maya/illusion/sorrow/happiness and what
not...

But like you said, we have to accept the fact that Existence has come
to exist ) and there is no point worrying abt its genesis....

Thanks again for your insights.

Have a nice day !

Sowmyji!

Thank you very much for explaining the genesis of your questions.
Now, I understand your questions well. My apologies for missing the
point.

These are the questions I like most. You are really into enquiry
and I can't therefore leave you yet.

My comments are in brackets [ ] below pertinent quotes from your
post:
_____________

>This is "why" i raised all those "why" questions ), hoping to
get some pointers from vedopanishands. ( if at all these questions
>were dealt with in them ).
_______________________

[I am sure you can find scriptural statements answering your
questions. Perhaps, a stotriya among us can help you here. But, it
is a matter of who explains and how they are interpreted. My
understanding is purely based on the interpretations I have read and
the material I have listened to, which I hope can clarify the issues
raised, as you will see below. Atleast, it has satisfied my
enquiring mind.]
___________________________________

I strongly feel that Consciousness is there for some valid
> reason. Not to simply "be" there.
>
> And i have never questioned the existence/consciousness. We all
know
> its presence (i.e. our presence). But i was just kinda wondering
why
> it is there? Why something has to exist?
____________________________________

[I am afraid there is a very dangerous and fundamental mistake here.
Please don't say "Consciousness is there" because with that "there"
you have brought in a spatial connotation. "CONSCIOUSNESS IS" is
more truthful. I have to bring in an anecdote here:

Once my daughter, who was then in the Class IV or V, and I were
going to a shopping centre. I was driving and she was sitting
beside me. Suddenly, she asked me this fundamental
question: "Dada, when and where this Consciousness that you are
talking so much about these days originate?". Well, that is a
question most children in all religions ask their parents when they
enquire: "Who created God?". Invariably, the parents would silence
them with a "Shut up!". Thanks to vedanta, I didn't have to do that
although her question swept me off my feet for a moment.

"When" is temporal and "where" is spatial. Both time and space
(space-time continuum) is *in* awareness because we know them both
to exist. They are objectifications. How can then we frame questions
about Awareness (Consciousness) with purely transactional words
like 'when' and 'where'.

I believe she was satisfied. Or, at least, I was, as an advaitin
parent.

This applies to your questions beginning with a
harrowing 'why'. 'Why' is causal. Cause and effect belong to the
transactional within Awareness. Consciousness, therefore, has no
cause. IT IS. Don't call it 'causeless'. It is CAUSELESSNESS as
it is TIMELESSNESS and SPACELESSNESS. Nouns are better expressions
as adjectives tend to be dangerously attributive. In other words,
Consciousness is ATTRIBUTELESSNESS (not beyond attributes as we
normally say). All these nouns signify the same Truth and are
synonyms in the absolute sense.

So, it is not a question of not worrying about the genesis of
Consciousness. Logically, there is no genesis at
all! "CONSCIOUSNESS IS" is all what we can say within our power of
expression.]

______________


Why cant there be no one to
> perceive and nothing to be perceived...total nothingness...then
there
> will no question of my mind/maya/illusion/sorrow/happiness and
what
> not...

_____________

[Nothingness is purely transactional. It is the opposite of
somethingness. Consciousness is not nothingness. It is neither
somethingness. MAyA is not illusion. It is the very situation in
which we are right now plagued by separation and differneces. The
whole creation is mAyA. Through the logic of advaita you have to
conclude that there has never been any creation at all and
CONSCIOUSNESS IS.]
___________________


> But like you said, we have to accept the fact that Existence has
come
> to exist ) and there is no point worrying abt its genesis....
__________

[I said there is no point worrying about the genesis of mAya and not
Existence. Existence being the synonym for Consciousness, we have
already found that 'whys' don't apply to it. As for mAyA, if you
can realize that there has not been any creation at all, where is
genesis?]

[Sowmyji, all these words from me are academic. One has to live
them to realize the Truth. How I go about doing it is narrated in
my post # 26701 of 16th May. No tall claims. I have improved with
this understanding although I still have several human failures.
But, life is much much better judging from my past. When I
explained my academic understanding to Sw. Dayanandaji quite some
time back and requested him to advise me on what I should do next,
he smiled and quipped: "Nair, don't do anything. Just
contemplate." You have an enquiring mind. God has blessed you to
contemplate. Thank him and see him in everything.]

PraNAms.

Madathil Nair

Thanks Nair-ji for providing deep insights on this subject.

Best Regards,
sowmy

Namaste:

Thanks for continuing your enquiry to resolve some fundamental
puzzles of Vedanta. Such puzzles can never be resolved by the
intellect using logical means. Faith is an integral part of any
enquiry and Vedantic understanding of spirituality requires this
important ingredient.

The way you have posed these questions and your subsequent replies
indicate that you have in depth knowledge of advaita. Also I believe
that you are 'questioning' the validity and logic of advaita
philosophy instead of making an enquiry. Honestly, this is a wrong
attitude for anyone who sincerely seeks the Truth. To resolve any
puzzles, we need to 'believe on certain starting point,' and then use
our intellect to verify and understand what we believe. The logic of
both spirituality and science is built with faith/assumptions and a
clear frame-work.

In your very first posting, I have noticed that you were more
interested in the sources for the Truth such as the Upanishads/Vedas
instead of Truth. The list members and moderators would be more than
happy to provide you as much details as they know either from books
or from their experience. However, we do have the right to know more
about you and your background. This will greatly help us understand
you better and help you more appropriately.

May I request you to provide a one or two paragraphs describing about
you. Thanks in advance for your cooperation and understanding.

Ram Chandran


--- In advaitin (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, "Sowmy" wrote:
> Dear Advaitins,
>
> This is another perpetual question that I have been having. Is
> Karma /Re-birth for real? I mean if there is only one Eternal
> Spirit/Soul/Consciousness, i.e. no individual souls, what then re-
> incarnates?
>

--- In advaitin (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, "Ram Chandran"
wrote:
> Namaste:

Namaste Ram-Ji.

You wrote:

> Faith is an integral part of any
> enquiry and Vedantic understanding of spirituality requires this
> important ingredient.


> To resolve any
> puzzles, we need to 'believe on certain starting point,' and then
use
> our intellect to verify and understand what we believe. The logic
of
> both spirituality and science is built with faith/assumptions and
a
> clear frame-work.


You are right. Without first having faith/belief or assumption about
something, we cannot go about understanding it. Thanks a lot for
pointing this out.

------------

You wrote:
> The way you have posed these questions and your subsequent replies
> indicate that you have in depth knowledge of advaita.

I dont think i can say that about myself. Whatever i think i know
about Advaita is only whatever i got exposed to. Im here in this
forum seeking more exposure.

------------
You wrote:

>However, we do have the right to know more about you and your
>background. This will greatly help us understand you better and
>help you more appropriately.


I understand your point.

I was born in a Orthodox Hindu Brahmin (Iyengar) family in Chennai.
Right from childhood i have been exposed to all sorts of concepts
about God, Existence etc. from various sources. My mother &
grandmother used to take me to Harikathas and that is where i picked
up most of these ideas. Because of this background i got a hang of
most Bhakthi/Vedanta concepts. But for some reason i did not go deep
into these and my knowledge was pretty supeficial. i.e. i did not
pursue this further after sometime and got pre-occupied with other
mundane things. (But of course, it was always there in the
background).I have read books on spirituality. (We have subscriptions
to many of the monthlies.)
But i have felt that some of the ideas that are presented about
God, Existence etc. are contradictory, which then set me on the path
of enquiry. I have searched extensively on the net about these
concepts and im trying to put all the pieces together. Of all, the
philosophy of non-duality struck me the most. I wanted to know more
about it and get my doubts cleared and hence i joined this group.

Hope this gives some idea about my background.

Thanks a lot Ram-Ji for taking the time to respond to my mail.

Have a nice day!

Namaste Sri Sowmy:

Most of us in the list have started our enquiry into Vedanta with a
background similar to yours. I could appreciate why find the concepts
confusing and also contradictory. In Vedic time period, the learning
method was more conducive and they used to take more than 14 years of
systematic learning from a Guru of their choice. In modern times, the
learning becomes more complicated because we don't focus on 'one'
but indulge in 'many.'

Since you are keen on learning indepth knowledge on advaita, I
suggest you read the following in addition to your participating in
the discussions through questions and comments.

The file folder with the site address below, contains lots of
materials related to advaita organized by folders.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/files/

Specifically, you start reading the following materials available in
the site address provided below:
==========================================
A dialogue in Advaita for Beginners
PDF file available at the advaitin home site:
http://www.advaitin.com/LinksToListDiscussions.html

Vedanta for Beginners by Sri Krishna Iyer
PDF file is available at the advaitin Site:
http://www.advaitin.com/LinksToListDiscussions.html

What is Real and Unreal by Sri Chittaranjan Naik
PDF file is available at the advaitin Site:
http://www.advaitin.com/LinksToListDiscussions.html

Whence Adhyasa List Discussions
PDF file is available at the advaitin Site:
http://www.advaitin.com/LinksToListDiscussions.html

If you have access to either Ramakrishna Mission or Chinmaya
Mission, you visit and check for books on advaita or Vedanta.

Most importantly, Bhagavad Gita can provide you comprehensive
materials on topics related to the questions that you have raised.

Warmest regards,

Ram Chandran
--- In advaitin (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, "Sowmy" wrote:
> --- In advaitin (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, "Ram Chandran"

Thanks a lot Ram-ji for taking the time to provide me with links to
Advaita reference material.

Best Regards,
sowmy