Mystics and Philosphers

07-02-2003, 08:12 AM

The portrait of Swami Vivekananda hung in the center of the living room of my
grandfather’s house so I knew that this was an important person and spent many
years discovering him. It has been many decades now since I read the Gospel of
Ramakrishna and how Swami Vivekananda met him.

I remember Naren asking the important people of his day regarding whether they
had seen God. No one could give him a satisfactory answer. Only Ramakrishna had
the confidence to say "Yes, I have seen God….."

I went to the following website and selected certain paragraphs about the early
years of Narendra (Swami Vivekananda). These illustrate the difference between
scholars, philosophers, and mystics. A genuine spiritual aspirant is not
satisfied with words and philosophy. His very being drives and compels him to
engage in spiritual practice and gain first hand knowledge of the Self as the
Self, His Own Being, the One without a Second, that the ancient sages have
called Sat-Chit-Ananda.

Here are some selected portions from http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

For a time the congregational prayers and the devotional songs of the Brahmo
Samaj exhilarated Narendra's mind, but soon he found that they did not give him
any real spiritual experience. He wanted to realize God, the goal of religion,
and so felt the imperative need of being instructed by a man who had seen God.

In his eagerness he went to Devendranath, the venerable leader of the Brahmo
Samaj, and asked him, even before the latter had uttered a word, 'Sir, have you
seen God?'

Devendranath was embarrassed and replied: 'My boy, you have the eyes of a yogi.
You should practise meditation.'

The youth was disappointed and felt that this teacher was not the man to help
him in his spiritual struggle. But he received no better answer from the leaders
of other religious sects. Then he remembered having heard the name of
Ramakrishna Paramahamsa from Professor Hastie, who while lecturing his class on
Wordsworth's poem The Excursion, had spoken of trances, remarking that such
religious ecstasies were the result of purity and concentration. He had said,
further, that an exalted experience of this kind was a rare phenomenon,
especially in modern times. 'I have known,' he had said, 'only one person who
has realized that blessed state, and he is Ramakrishna of Dakshineswar. You will
understand trances if you visit the saint.'

Narendra had also heard about Sri Ramakrishna from a relative, Ramchandra Datta,
who was one of the foremost householder disciples of the Master. Learning of
Narendra's unwillingness to marry and ascribing it to his desire to lead a
spiritual life, Ramchandra had said to him, 'If you really want to cultivate
spirituality, then visit Ramakrishna at Dakshineswar.'

Narendra met Ramakrishna for the first time in November 1881 at the house of the
Master's devotee Surendranath Mitra, the young man having been invited there to
entertain the visitors with his melodious music. The Paramahamsa was much
impressed by his sincerity and devotion, and after a few inquiries asked him to
visit him at Dakshineswar. Narendra accepted. He wished to learn if Ramakrishna
was the man to help him in his spiritual quest……….

They returned to the room and Naren asked the Master, 'Sir, have you seen God?'
Without a moment's hesitation the reply was given: 'Yes, I have seen God. I see
Him as I see you here, only more clearly. God can be seen. One can talk to him.
But who cares for God? People shed torrents of tears for their wives, children,
wealth, and property, but who weeps for the vision of God? If one cries
sincerely for God, one can surely see Him.'

07-02-2003, 09:28 AM

>A genuine spiritual aspirant is not satisfied with words and
>philosophy.

It is quite true that philosophy cannot provide positive realization.
But it can serve as the thorn that removes the other thorns of
conceptual obstructions to realization.

Om! Benjamin

07-02-2003, 07:54 PM

> >Harshaji wrote...A genuine spiritual aspirant is not satisfied with words
and philosophy.
>
> Benji wrote...It is quite true that philosophy cannot provide positive
realization.
> But it can serve as the thorn that removes the other thorns of
> conceptual obstructions to realization.
>
> Om! Benjamin
----------------------------------------------

Um, my two cents and a favorite story below...

Hari OM, Ben-ji and
Welcome to the sangha...
A rose to place atop the thorns...
For you below, from me...

But do be careful, my Jnani friend
If the thorn is deeply dug
You might get bitten
By the bhakti bug

Joyce
--------------------------------------------

THE LIFE OF S R I R A M A K R I S H N A
by Romain Rolland.

Kamarpukur is the name of a village in Bengal.
An old orthodox Brahmin couple, called Chattopadhyaya lived there. They were
very poor and very pious and devotees of Sri Ram. At the age of sixty, the
Brahmin went on a pilgrimage to Gaya, where there is an imprint of the foot
of Lord Vishnu. The Lord appeared to him in the night and said: "I am about
to be reborn for the salvation of the world."
About the same time in Kamarpukur his wife, Chandramani, dreamt that she had
been possessed by some Divine Spirit. In the temple opposite her cottage the
divine image of Shiva quickened to life under her eyes. A ray of light
penetrated to the depths of her being. Chandramani was overthrown and she
fainted. When she regained consciousness, she realised that she had
conceived. Her husband on his return found her transfigured. She heard
voices; She carried a Divine Being. The child whom the world was to know as
Ramakrishna, was born on February 18, 1836. His childhood name was Gadadhar.
He was a little boy full of fun and life, mischievous and charming. Nobody
imagined what tremendous depths lay hidden in the little body of this
laughing child. They were revealed to him when he was six years old.

In Sri Ramakrishna`s own words:

"I was following a narrow path between the rice fields. I raised my eyes to
the sky as I munched my popcorn. I saw a great black cloud spreading rapidly
until it covered the heavens. Suddenly at the edge of the cloud a flight of
snow-white cranes passed over my head. The contrast was so beautiful that my
spirit wandered far away. I lost consciousness and fell to the ground. The
popcorn was scattered. Somebody picked me up and carried me home in his
arms. An excess of joy and emotion overcame me. This was the first time that
I was seized with ecstasy."

His father died when he was seven years old. His elder brother, Ramkumar,
went to Culcutta and opened a school there. He sent for his younger brother,
now an adolescent, in 1852, to study at the school, but Gadadhar, filled
with the urge of his inner life and quite undisciplined, refused to learn.

At that time there was a rich woman, named Rani Rasmani. At Dakshineswar, on
the eastern bank of the river Ganga, some four miles from Culcutta, she
founded a temple to the great Goddess, the Divine Mother Kali. Gadadhar`s
(Ramakrishna's) brother Ramkumar was appointed as a priest to this temple.
In the following year, Ramkumar died, and Ramakrishna decided to take his
place.

The young priest of Kali was twenty years old, and the young priest was
associated with all the intimate acts of the day. He dressed Her (the image
of Goddess Kali), he offered flowers and food. He was one of the attendants
when the Goddess arose and when She went to bed. The very first touch left
the sting of Kali in his fingers and united them forever. Within the temple
She dwelt, a basalt figure of Kali. She was the Universal Mother. In the
words of Sri Ramakrishna:

"My mother, the all powerful, who reveals Herself to Her children under
different aspects and Divine Incarnations. The visible Goddess who leads the
chosen to the invisible God."

But after Kali had left Her sting in him, She withheld Herself from him.

Passion for the dumb Goddess consumed him. To touch Her, to win one sign of
life from Her, one look, one sigh, one smile, became the sole object of his
existence. He flung himself down in the garden, meditating and praying. He
tore off all his clothes. Like a lost child he besought the Mother to show
Herself to him. In despair, he writhed on the ground in front of visitors,
and became an object of pity, of mockery, even of scandal; but he cared for
none of these things. Only one thing mattered. He knew that he was on the
verge of extreme happiness. Nothing but a thin partition, which he was
nevertheless powerless to breakdown, separated him from it. He is described
by those who saw him in those days of bewilderment as having face and breast
reddened by the afflux of blood, his eyes filled with tears and his body
shaken with spasms. He was at the limit of physical endurance. And then the
partition was suddenly removed and he saw!

Let him speak for himself:

"One day I was torn with intolerable anguish. My heart seemed to be wrung as
a damp cloth might be wrung. I was racked with pain. A terrible frenzy
seized me at the thought that I might never be granted the blessing of this
Divine vision. I thought if that were so, then enough of this life! A sword
was hanging in the sanctuary of Kali. My eyes fell upon it and an idea
flashed through my brain like a flash of lightning. `The sword! It will help
me to end it.' I rushed up to it, and seized it like a madman. And lo! The
whole scene, doors, windows, the temple itself vanished. It seemed as if
nothing existed any more. Instead, I saw an ocean of the Spirit, boundless,
dazzling. In whatever direction I turned, great luminous waves were rising.
They bore down upon me with a loud roar, as if to swallow me up. In an
instant, they were upon me.They broke over me, they engulfed me. I was
suffocated. I lost all natural consciousness and I fell. How I passed that
day and the next I know not. Around me rolled an ocean of ineffable joy. And
in the depths of my being I was conscious of the presence of the Divine
Mother"

This experience had led Ramakrishna from the formless to the form of his
Beloved Mother Kali. .He wished it so; for once he had seen and possessed it
for an instant, he could not live without it. From that day onward he would
have ceased to exist if he had not constantly renewed the fiery vision.
Without it the world was dead, the living people as nothing but vain
shadows, like painted figures upon a screen. The shock of the first
encounter was so violent that his whole being remained in a shuddering
state. He only saw those around him through a veil of drifting mist. He
could no longer control his eyes, his body or his mind; another will guided
them, and he passed through some terrible hours.

He prayed to the Mother to come to his aid. Then suddenly he understood. He
was possessed by the Mother. He ceased to resist. She filled him. And out of
the mists little by little, the material form of the Goddess emerged, first
a hand, then Her breath, Her voice, finally Her whole person. It was
evening. The puja rites were over for the day. The Mother was supposed to be
asleep, and Ramakrishna had returned to his room outside the temple above
the Ganga. But he could not sleep. He listened. He heard Her get up; She
went up to the upper storey of the temple with the joy of a young girl. As
She walked the rings of Her anklets rang. He wondered if he were dreaming.
His heart hammered in his breast. He went out into the court and raised his
head. There he saw Her with unbounded hair on the balcony of the first
floor, watching the Ganga river flow through the beautiful night.

>From that moment, his days and nights were passed in the continual presence
of his beloved Mother. Eventually he was identified with Her, and gradually
the radiance of his inner vision became outwardly manifest.
____________________________________

The Teachings of Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa
Excerpts from the book 'God Lived With Them'
by Swami Chetanananda, Belur Math

Do you believe in a God with form
or in a formless God? ( Episode one)

One of these visitors, Gadashankar, was a follower of Keshab Chandra Sen.
The Master (Sri Ramakrishna) talked with him on the eastern veranda while I
was there.

"Do you practise the brahminical rites daily?" the Master asked him.

"I don't like all these rituals," he said.

"You see," the Master went on, "do not give up anything by force. If the
blossoms of gourds and pumpkins are plucked off, their fruits rot, but when
the fruits are ripe the flowers fall off naturally. Do you believe in a God
with form or in a formless God?"

"In the formless aspect," was the reply.

"But how can you grasp the formless aspect all at once?" the Master asked.
"When the archers are learning to shoot, they first aim at the plantain
tree, then at a thin tree, then at a fruit, then at the leaves, and finally
at a flying bird. First meditate on the aspect with form. This will enable
you to see the formless later.
___________________________________

Do you believe in a God with form
or in a formless God? ( Episode two)

Since Manomohan was an ardent devotee of Keshab Chandra Sen and the Brahmo
Samaj, he was averse to idol worship. Sri Ramakrishna understood Manomohan's
attitude and said to him:

"As an imitation custard apple reminds one of the real fruit, so the divine
images enkindle the presence of God. He is all-powerful. It is possible for
Him to manifest in anything."

Manomohan, Ram and Gopal had a long conversation with Sri Ramakrishna, and
they returned to Calcutta in the evening full of peace and joy.

Manomohan decided after that first visit to see the Master every Sunday. On
his second visit he asked Sri Ramakrishna: "Some people say God is formless,
others say He is with form, and again others call Him Krishna, Shiva, or
Kali. Could you tell us what the real nature of God is?"

Sri Ramakrishna smiled and said: "He is sometimes with form, He is sometimes
formless, and again He is beyond both. He is all-pervading. It is difficult
to ascertain His real nature. Just as there is nothing to compare gold with
except gold, so there is nothing equal to God. He is the cause of the gross
objects as well as of the subtle mind and intellect. For example: The same
substance in its solid form is ice, in its liquid form is water, and in its
gaseous form is vapour. According to the mental attitude of the spiritual
aspirant, God manifests Himself. A jnani experiences God as all-pervading,
formless space, and a devotee perceives God with a particular form. So, if
you sincerely want to know the real nature of God, meditate on Him in
solitude. Have patience. Surrender yourself to him and pray. When the right
time comes, you will see Him."

Manomohan: "We get peace when we feel the presence of God in our hearts;
otherwise mere intellectual understanding of God and atheism are the same."

Sri Ramakrishna: "In the beginning one should move forward on the spiritual
path holding to an initial faith (i.e., faith in the words of the scriptures
and the guru). One then attains direct perception. There are two kinds of
faith - initial and real faith (i.e., faith that comes from direct
experience). Be steadfast in the first one and then you will see God."

The vision of the Chosen Deity is
equivalent to Self-knowledge.

On another occasion, Gangadhar (later Swami Akhandananda) went to
Dakshineshwar and found that the Master was in samadhi. When he came down to
normal consciousness, he spoke of God-vision and Self-realization, saying:
"One's own Chosen Deity and the Atman (Self) are identical. The vision of
the Chosen Deity is equivalent to Self-knowledge."

Do you know how to pray?

Sri Ramakrishna taught from his own experience, not through knowledge
acquired through books. Gangadhar (later Swami Akhandananda) recalled:

"Once I spent a night at Dakshineshwar with several other disciples, and the
Master had us all sit for meditation. While communing with our Chosen
Deities, we often laughed and wept in ecstasy. The pure joy we experienced
in those boyhood days cannot be expressed in words. Whenever I approached
the Master he would invariably ask me, 'Did you shed tears at the time of
prayer or meditation?' And one day when I answered yes to this, how happy he
was!"

The Master said: "Tears of repentance or sorrow flow from the corners of the
eyes nearest to the nose and those of joy from the outer corners of the
eyes."

Suddenly the Master asked me: "Do you know how to pray?"

Saying this he flung his hands and feet about restlessly - like a little
child impatient for its mother. Then he cried out: "Mother dear, grant me
knowledge and devotion. I don't want anything else. I can't live without
you."

While thus teaching us how to pray, he looked just like a small boy. Profuse
tears rolled down his chest, and he passed into deep samadhi. I was
convinced that the Master did that for my sake.

Does God listen to our prayers?

Sri Ramakrishna: "What are you saying? You will call on God and He will not
listen? He is omnipresent and omniscient. How do you know that He does not
listen to your prayers? You have no faith, so you are doubting Him."

'Look, here is the living Shiva.'

One morning Sri Ramakrishna took me to the Kali Temple. Whenever I went
there alone I stood outside the threshold, but on this occasion the Master
took me into the sanctum and showed me the face of Lord Shiva, who was of
course lying on his back while Kali stood over Him. His face was not visible
from outside the shrine, where one could only see the top of His head. The
Master said: 'Look, here is the living Shiva.' I felt that Lord Shiva was
conscious and breathing. I was astonished. How potent were the Master's
words! Up to that time I had thought that this image was just like all other
Shiva images I had seen.

Sri Ramakrishna then gently pulled Mother Kali's cloth and placed Her
ornaments properly. When we left the temple he was reeling like a drunkard.
He was escorted to his room with difficulty and remained for some time in
samadhi. I cannot describe the details of that day - the joy the Master
poured into my heart cannot be communicated. After coming down from samadhi
the Master sang many songs in an ecstatic mood."

How can He who is the Absolute Brahman, omnipresent and pervading the whole
universe, incarnate Himself as man?

Once in Dakshineshwar some non-dualistic devotees came from Varanasi to
visit the Master when Gangadhar (later Swami Akhandananda) was present. He
later recorded their conversation in his memoirs:

One person asked: "Sir, how can He who is the Absolute Brahman, omnipresent
and pervading the whole universe, incarnate Himself as man?"

"You see," the Master replied, "He who is the Absolute Brahman is the
witness and is immanent everywhere. The divine incarnation is an embodiment
of His power. The power is incarnate somewhere a quarter, somewhere else a
half, and very rarely in full. He in whom the full powers manifest is adored
as Purna Brahman, like Krishna. And three quarters of the Divine were
manifested in Rama."

Why does one take so much care of his body?

To this one of the gentlemen said: "Sir, this body is the root of all evils.
If it can be destroyed, all troubles will cease."

The Master said: "The raw earthen pots when broken are made into pots again,
but the burnt ones, once broken, can never be remade. So if you destroy the
body before the attainment of Self-realization, you will have to be reborn
and suffer similar consequences."

"But, sir," the gentleman objected, "why does one take so much care of his
body?"

The Master answered: "Those who do the work of moulding, preserve the mould
with care till the image is made. When the image is ready, it does not
matter whether the mould is kept or rejected. So with this body. One has to
realize the Supreme Self. One has to attain Self-knowledge. After that the
body may remain or go. Till then the body has to be taken care of."

The gentleman was silenced.

How to increase our longing for God

Sri Ramakrishna: "As hunger and thirst arise spontaneously, so does longing
for God. Everything depends upon time. Mere thinking cannot make a person
hungry. In the same way longing for God does not come simply by saying, 'Let
there be longing.' Yearning is awakened in the mind automatically when a
person feels the need for God. Yearning for God does not come until and
unless a person has satisfied his cravings for mundane objects, renounced
all attachment to lust and gold, and shunned worldly comforts and enjoyments
like filth.

How many people are restless for God-realization? People shed jugfuls of
tears for their wives, children, or money, but who weeps for God? He who
longs for Him certainly will find Him. Cry for Him. Call on Him with a
longing heart. You will see Him.
____________________________________

PS Forgive me, Harshaji, but I did not edit. So, how many demerits do I
get?

Love to all, Joyce

Excerpt above was taken from http://www.hinduism.co.za/idols&.htm

07-03-2003, 07:27 AM

Hi Lady Joyce

> But do be careful, my Jnani friend
> If the thorn is deeply dug
> You might get bitten
> By the bhakti bug
>

I do remember you; you were briefly on the
Advaitin list, but I think you didn't care for
the philosophy.

Frankly, I've never really understood
devotion. I can imagine having sweet
feelings for a woman but not for God.
However, I do believe in and long for
a 'vast cosmic feeling'. And I can understand
ideas such as 'God is Consciousness' and
'Everything is Consciousness', and so
'Everything is God'. And this I associate
with the 'vast cosmic feeling'. But feelings of
sweetness and tenderness for the deity are
still beyond my comprehension.

So, there were still virgin births in 1836?
Wow!

Benjamin

07-03-2003, 05:21 PM

Ben wrote...

> Hi Lady Joyce
>
> I do remember you; you were briefly on the
> Advaitin list, but I think you didn't care for
> the philosophy.

Dear Ben-ji:

I am still a karma carrying member of the Advaitin list.
I just don't post that much...keeps me out of trouble...get my gist :-) ?

>
> Frankly, I've never really understood
> devotion.

Yes, I remember you saying that on the Advaitin list, especially when the
subject was Jnana and Bhakti.
Until a little over one year ago, neither did I, at least not consciously.
And I think you feel devotion more than you understand it.
Even as I seek to understand, there is a part of me that just does not care
for understanding at all.
Sometimes people get so caught up in their words and concepts, they strangle
any possible understanding.
Certainly my understanding of what they are saying:-)

>I can imagine having sweet
> feelings for a woman but not for God.

All is Brahman, Ben-ji, remember?

> However, I do believe in and long for
> a 'vast cosmic feeling'. And I can understand
> ideas such as 'God is Consciousness' and
> 'Everything is Consciousness', and so
> 'Everything is God'. And this I associate
> with the 'vast cosmic feeling'. But feelings of
> sweetness and tenderness for the deity are
> still beyond my comprehension.

To me, these feelings are not a matter of comprehension, Ben-ji. They are a
matter of direct experience.
Had I not had the experiences I have had in the past year, I would not even
be on this or any other spiritual list talking about this. I would not even
be thinking about it. I was not thinking about it. I was not seeking it. Yet
it happened. If it happened to me, it can happen to you :-) As you long for
it, may God come to you in a form you find pleasing...

The Heart is the Self. The Self is the Heart.

Namaste, gassho and OM,

Joyce

07-04-2003, 08:41 AM

Joyce wrote:
> Had I not had the experiences I have had in the past year, I would not even
> be on this or any other spiritual list talking about this. I would not even
> be thinking about it. I was not thinking about it. I was not seeking it.

Can you describe these experiences? A lot of people think it is vain, improper
and
embarrassing to talk about this, but I always read such accounts with keen
interest
while maintaining my objectivity. Vivid details are appreciated. I know you're
a poet,
but poetry sometimes confuses me. A prose description is more useful to me.

Benjamin

P.S. As you correctly noted, I am usually called Ben. 'Benjamin' seems a bit
more
distinctive as a 'nom de plume' and even kind of cute. I can't decide whether
it's silly
or not. I think I'll choose a Sanskrit webname someday, but it has to be both
Buddhist and Advaitin. Maybe Prajnabenananda?

07-05-2003, 06:31 AM

Subject: [HarshaSatsangh] Re: Mystics and Philosphers and other sundry
sorts...

Dear Prajnabenananda:-)

I know I opened the door to your questions with my comments to you, but
since we are not in a court of law and there is no judge to yell at me, I
will close it over your objection! When I first went online searching for
understanding of what had happened to me/inside of me, I wrote quite a bit
about what had happened, sometimes in vivid detail. But there is much that
I never spoke of and wish to keep private. As it happens, the list where I
first, um, cut my teeth, the k-list, is no longer in existence as such and
is now at another name and I do not believe that the old posts are
accessible. God is good :-) I lost my old computer and almost all of my
computer data a few weeks ago, so I don't even have my own
writings from the start. God is good :-) Ok, Ok, so I am talking
in non nondual terms. Let me try to fix it...

I am the the Self, the Self is God;
God is the Self; therefore, I am God.
I am good!!! (Hi, tj :-)

Love,

Joyce

ps Before you joined the list, there was a thread about Kundalini which you
might find interesting.

>
> Joyce wrote:
> > Had I not had the experiences I have had in the past year, I would not
even
> > be on this or any other spiritual list talking about this. I would not
even
> > be thinking about it. I was not thinking about it. I was not seeking it.
>
> Can you describe these experiences? A lot of people think it is vain,
improper and
> embarrassing to talk about this, but I always read such accounts with keen
interest
> while maintaining my objectivity. Vivid details are appreciated. I know
you're a poet,
> but poetry sometimes confuses me. A prose description is more useful to
me.
>
> Benjamin
>
> P.S. As you correctly noted, I am usually called Ben. 'Benjamin' seems a
bit more
> distinctive as a 'nom de plume' and even kind of cute. I can't decide
whether it's silly
> or not. I think I'll choose a Sanskrit webname someday, but it has to be
both
> Buddhist and Advaitin. Maybe Prajnabenananda?
>
>
>
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HarshaSatsangh/join
>
> HarshaSatsangh Magazine and Website is at
>
> http://www.harshasatsangh.com
>
> The Heart is the Self. The Self is the Heart.
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>