Dear List,
Well, it was never my intention to glorify 'anyone' - this'Tim" (and
there but for the Grace of God go I)... nor would any Zen master
approve of anyone glorifying him. Of course, in conventional terms,
this person's actions were despicable and so forth. And how thrilling
and temporarily satisfying righteous anger at other is. If we look
around us, we see things like this occuring daily really. I have
lived a good part of my life in Third World countries, (as we like to
label them and tuck those folks conveniently into the back of our
mind), including eight years in Kenya. What is happening there, what
is continuing to happen in all of Africa and in all of Asia, without
any particular expression of outrage, is beyond description. And as
well, in my happy country of Canada, there is plenty of suffering and
oppression, perhaps not so apparent as in Africa. It is a matter of
degree. All conventional politics is dual, even when we are good
people thinking and doing the right thing. And conveniently overlooks
the idea of karma.
When the realization that all my efforts at political action were
really quite hopeless, were not eleviating any suffering and usually
making things worse, I decided that the only possible political
action left was to be a student of non-dualty, to explore the greed,
hatred and delusion, the cause of all suffering, in this egoistic
life as I live it, in this mind writing. What other response is
there? Then, at the very least, one is not adding to the grief.
Whoever this 'Tim' was, who knows? But whoever anyone on this list has
to arise in this mind as it contacts their expression through the
posts. This affords the opportunity to see into the moment this 'I'
and any greed, hatred and delusion. Most of my experience is with
Buddhism, but I don't identify this self here as a 'Buddhist'. This
is really only a model of reality, one of many, offering a view that
may or not offer insight into full reality. Since it seems to me
that Buddhism, and Advaita meet at the point of exploring this
'illness' of 'self', this delusion of 'I' and 'other' then I assumed
that encountering students of non-duality on this list would offer
insight into my own ponderings and exploration into this duality and
what non-dualty might be. This is happening. Rather fine practice.
I don't post anything from Buddhist thought with the agenda that Im
going to sort people out. This would be pretty dual and delusional.
I post whatever seems to be passing through mind. It happens to be
what I have on my desk currently. Sometimes a person will respond
from where they locate themselves in the moment. Sometimes their
response sorts out some tangle in mind here and even better,
sometimes I laugh. But, always the opportunity to look at duality
through projection is present. Do 'I' like something, or some
imagined other, dislike something? feel neutral...whatever, one sees
the antics of 'I' present at these times. Mostly there is equanimity
to all of it and appreciation.
Of course it goes without saying that one's concern is for any and all
'victims'. But when I watched a few of the interviews with Tim's
victims, I saw those who continued to suffer in hell, looking for
some sort of relief through angry vengence, and finding none, and
those who, with great courage and spirit, determined to make their
suffering count for something, to help and support others. These
people I find most inspiring. If they can do this, why not I? They at
least move into better karma and use their terrible suffering as their
path. All beings will suffer what is for them the limit of suffering
at some point in their lives. People around them may not even notice,
their suffering may not be a public spectacle, an 'orderly event' as
CNN put it. We can kill another, but let us do it in orderly
fashion.
So, all students of non-duality, who are the victims, who is 'Tim'?
Who are the enlightened ones, who are the suffering masses? Who are
the prisoners filling the prisons, who are the millions at this
moment dying? Who are the tortured, who are those doing the deed. The
list is endless. Who is walking the walk beyond the talk? Yes, I am
angry beyond words, at all of 'it'!
Who is nasty Tim and who is good little me? Who do I hate today?
Joyce

beloved joyce....essentially this is wht the poem i wrote for tim was
about....many failed to see the irony in some of the
words.....another irony in that it inspired a verbal violence is some
reponses which is what i was objecting to anyway....senseless violence
propagating itself.....the ironig 'you' and 'your' id deliberate....is
you the godhead....is you you the reade....is you white wolfe/the
witness talking to mark/the poet....or is all of us?......dualities
within dualites arising into a i hoped a fairly non-dual
commentary.....over on another list Father Patrick Collins
immediately picked up this so the poem has served its
purpose.....keep writing....i love your posts.....^^~~~~~

further up and further in,

white wolfe
----- Original Message -----
From: Joyce Short
To: HarshaSatsangh (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 6:40 AM
Subject: [HarshaSatsangh] Who is Poor Wee Tim?
Dear List,Well, it was never my intention to glorify 'anyone' -
this'Tim" (and there but for the Grace of God go I)... nor would any
Zen master approve of anyone glorifying him. Of course, in
conventional terms, this person's actions were despicable and so
forth. And how thrilling and temporarily satisfying righteous anger
at other is. If we look around us, we see things like this occuring
daily really. I have lived a good part of my life in Third World
countries, (as we like to label them and tuck those folks
conveniently into the back of our mind), including eight years in
Kenya. What is happening there, what is continuing to happen in all
of Africa and in all of Asia, without any particular expression of
outrage, is beyond description. And as well, in my happy country of
Canada, there is plenty of suffering and oppression, perhaps not so
apparent as in Africa. It is a matter of degree. All conventional
politics is dual, even when we are good people thinking and doing the
right thing. And conveniently overlooks the idea of karma.When the
realization that all my efforts at political action were really quite
hopeless, were not eleviating any suffering and usually making things
worse, I decided that the only possible political action left was to
be a student of non-dualty, to explore the greed, hatred and
delusion, the cause of all suffering, in this egoistic life as I live
it, in this mind writing. What other response is there? Then, at the
very least, one is not adding to the grief.Whoever this 'Tim' was,
who knows? But whoever anyone on this list has to arise in this mind
as it contacts their expression through the posts. This affords the
opportunity to see into the moment this 'I' and any greed, hatred and
delusion. Most of my experience is with Buddhism, but I don't
identify this self here as a 'Buddhist'. This is really only a model
of reality, one of many, offering a view that may or not offer
insight into full reality. Since it seems to me that Buddhism, and
Advaita meet at the point of exploring this 'illness' of 'self', this
delusion of 'I' and 'other' then I assumed that encountering students
of non-duality on this list would offer insight into my own
ponderings and exploration into this duality and what non-dualty
might be. This is happening. Rather fine practice. I don't post
anything from Buddhist thought with the agenda that Im going to sort
people out. This would be pretty dual and delusional. I post
whatever seems to be passing through mind. It happens to be what I
have on my desk currently. Sometimes a person will respond from where
they locate themselves in the moment. Sometimes their response sorts
out some tangle in mind here and even better, sometimes I laugh. But,
always the opportunity to look at duality through projection is
present. Do 'I' like something, or some imagined other, dislike
something? feel neutral...whatever, one sees the antics of 'I'
present at these times. Mostly there is equanimity to all of it and
appreciation.Of course it goes without saying that one's concern is
for any and all 'victims'. But when I watched a few of the
interviews with Tim's victims, I saw those who continued to suffer in
hell, looking for some sort of relief through angry vengence, and
finding none, and those who, with great courage and spirit,
determined to make their suffering count for something, to help and
support others. These people I find most inspiring. If they can do
this, why not I? They at least move into better karma and use their
terrible suffering as their path. All beings will suffer what is for
them the limit of suffering at some point in their lives. People
around them may not even notice, their suffering may not be a public
spectacle, an 'orderly event' as CNN put it. We can kill another,
but let us do it in orderly fashion.So, all students of non-duality,
who are the victims, who is 'Tim'? Who are the enlightened ones, who
are the suffering masses? Who are the prisoners filling the prisons,
who are the millions at this moment dying? Who are the tortured, who
are those doing the deed. The list is endless. Who is walking the
walk beyond the talk? Yes, I am angry beyond words, at all of
'it'!Who is nasty Tim and who is good little me? Who do I hate
today?Joycehttp://groups.yahoo.com/group/HarshaSatsangh/joinHarshaSatsangh
Magazine and Website is athttp://www.harshasatsangh.comAll paths go
somewhere. No path goes nowhere. Paths, places, sights, perceptions,
and indeed all experiences arise from and exist in and subside back
into the Space of Awareness. Like waves rising are not different than
the ocean, all things arising from Awareness are of the nature of
Awareness. Awareness does not come and go but is always Present. It
is Home. Home is where the Heart Is. Jnanis know the Heart to be the
Finality of Eternal Being. A true devotee relishes in the Truth of
Self-Knowledge, spontaneously arising from within into It Self.
Welcome all to HarshaSatsangha.Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject
to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

--- In HarshaSatsangh@y..., "White Wolfe" <valemar@m...> wrote:
Namaste,

Father Patrick Collins, what list is that please?....Tony.

Hi Joyce and Wolf,

>Joyce:
>Well, it was never my intention to glorify 'anyone' - this'Tim"

I don't know what you had in mind with your lovely "Dragon Pome for all
'Tims'"... the heroic language and symbolism seem to me to be glorifying
the image of the sacred warrior...

He has been called "a martyr to higher love," "a zen catholic," "this
monumental sacrifice," "sacred warrior," "unflinchingly courageous,"
"a
noble warrior," etc., etc.

>Wolf:
>many failed to see the irony in some of the words

If I read your poem wrong, I do apologize for that, but not for my concern
about anyone making a noble martyr of this man.

My reaction to this did not come from anger, righteous or otherwise, or
from hate. Nor does it require any justification in terms of non-dual
philosophy.

It's a simple matter. This man blew up a building and killed hundreds of
people, including children - to make a statement about the U.S. government,
as I understand him. I would hate to give anyone else the idea that all
you have to do to become a great cultural hero, a sacred warrior, become
gloriously famous and go down in the history books as a martyr to higher
love, is to go out and blow up a lot of people.

This was a sad, disillusioned, and disempowered man... to my thinking, he
had to be crazy to commit such a horrendous act as a political statement
and express no remorse at seeing what he had done. I felt as I watched him
that he felt some gratification at having expressed his power and
established his place in history because of it.

This is a big list with many people on it... let's not tell everyone that
this is one way to become famous and loved and respected.

Love,
Dharma

Hi Dharma:

Do you really think anyone on this list or any other list would do
such a heinous act, if it were not their destiny to do it? A gifted
psychic or astrologer may have been able to know that a similar act
would ensue before the fact.

Love in advance,
Alton




--- In HarshaSatsangh@y..., Dharma <deva@L...> wrote:
> Hi Joyce and Wolf,
>
> >Joyce:
> >Well, it was never my intention to glorify 'anyone' - this'Tim"
>
> I don't know what you had in mind with your lovely "Dragon Pome for
all
> 'Tims'"... the heroic language and symbolism seem to me to be
glorifying
> the image of the sacred warrior...
>
> He has been called "a martyr to higher love," "a zen
catholic," "this
> monumental sacrifice," "sacred warrior," "unflinchingly
courageous," "a
> noble warrior," etc., etc.
>
> >Wolf:
> >many failed to see the irony in some of the words
>
> If I read your poem wrong, I do apologize for that, but not for my
concern
> about anyone making a noble martyr of this man.
>
> My reaction to this did not come from anger, righteous or
otherwise, or
> from hate. Nor does it require any justification in terms of non-
dual
> philosophy.
>
> It's a simple matter. This man blew up a building and killed
hundreds of
> people, including children - to make a statement about the U.S.
government,
> as I understand him. I would hate to give anyone else the idea
that all
> you have to do to become a great cultural hero, a sacred warrior,
become
> gloriously famous and go down in the history books as a martyr to
higher
> love, is to go out and blow up a lot of people.
>
> This was a sad, disillusioned, and disempowered man... to my
thinking, he
> had to be crazy to commit such a horrendous act as a political
statement
> and express no remorse at seeing what he had done. I felt as I
watched him
> that he felt some gratification at having expressed his power and
> established his place in history because of it.
>
> This is a big list with many people on it... let's not tell
everyone that
> this is one way to become famous and loved and respected.
>
> Love,
> Dharma