Re: K , Guides and Teachers

03-21-2000, 05:57 AM

In a message dated 3/21/00 12:50:55 AM Eastern Standard Time,
fisher1@... writes:

<<
I work _with_ my students' spiritual guides. If a new student doesn't
hear, then that's the first thing to work on. Meditation and learning to
hear the inner guide. I don't go into more advanced work until he hears
his guide or at least can get good intuition from the guide on important
matters. You may have read the post I forwarded from Matt... I'm working
with him, but he still regards His Lady as his main teacher... and rightly
so.

>>

Hello Dharma,
l appreciated your response and feel moved to clarify what l
said about k awakened people going to teachers. There is risk, but most would
agree that some risks are justified in certain circumstances. l think the
risk is much greater when shaktipat is used, as opposed to other methods, and
l'm sure that working carefully with someone on a one to one basis, as you
do, is also much safer. lt would seem that following the prescribed
practices of an experienced teacher should be relatively safe so long as the
student is careful, as you say. And after all, people do need guidance. The
problems l incurred from doing pranayama given to me by the sufi probably
resulted from his apparent lack of respect for the power of the energy. After
l first started getting headaches, he initially expressed surprise, then told
me to continue with the practices anyway -- that the headaches should stop.
So, although l slackened off, l didn't completely stop with the practices for
several weeks, which probably made it worse.

You asked at what point the Tibetan lamas told me to stop doing practices and
just take it easy. lt was very early, shortly after the problems began, so if
l would have followed their advice l probably would've avoided alot of what
followed with later teachers. At that time l was hungry for progress and too
attached to meditation to be ready to stop everything. And l guess l couldn't
accept that there wasn't someone out there who could help. When l mentioned
that some teachers won't work with k problems unless the person studied with
them, l didn't mean that the teachers were trying to get them for students,
but that these teachers actually send them back to their original teachers
(or another teacher in that tradition), apparently because they feel that the
original teacher or someone in his tradition can best understand the problem.
This has happened to people l know.
l read your post from Matt
and found his experience to be quite extraordinary, both in terms of the
conversations with his spiritual guide and his information on electromagnetic
fields. l remember thinking while l was reading it, " Why doesn't a guide
like this appear for me?" ls it because l haven't tried hard enough to make
contact? l don't know -- l've certainly prayed enough. lf l do have a
spiritual guide, he/she appears to be quite aloof, which may have something
to do with my being so k-challenged (LOL)

. l've had a couple great k
dreams in the last year, in which it felt as if l was being sent messages.
Beyond that, it usually feels more like l'm just listening to my body and
heeding lessons from the past -- nothing special about that, but it appears
l'm making progress -- at glacial speed

.

love,
jerry

03-23-2000, 02:08 AM

Hi Jerry,

>> I work _with_ my students' spiritual guides. If a new student doesn't
>> hear, then that's the first thing to work on. Meditation and learning to
>> hear the inner guide. I don't go into more advanced work until he hears
>> his guide or at least can get good intuition from the guide on important
>> matters. You may have read the post I forwarded from Matt... I'm working
>> with him, but he still regards His Lady as his main teacher... and rightly
>> so.

>
> l appreciated your response and feel moved to clarify what l
>said about k awakened people going to teachers. There is risk, but most would
>agree that some risks are justified in certain circumstances. l think the
>risk is much greater when shaktipat is used, as opposed to other methods,

I do give Shaktipat, Jerry... it just means the transmission of energy.
But there isn't anything I would always do with every student. I've never
given Shaktipat to Matt, because he hasn't needed any more energy... he's
got more than he knows what to do with now.

))

We are all different, and we develop differently. Those lists of the
initiations, for instance, are just the norm or the average... not
everyone goes through the various stages in the same order.

>and
>l'm sure that working carefully with someone on a one to one basis, as you
>do, is also much safer. lt would seem that following the prescribed
>practices

There again, I have various techniques to use, but I have no list of what
_everyone_ should get into first and second, etc. It all depends on the
individual.

>of an experienced teacher should be relatively safe so long as the
>student is careful, as you say. And after all, people do need guidance. The
>problems l incurred from doing pranayama given to me by the sufi probably
>resulted from his apparent lack of respect for the power of the energy.

Maybe so.

If he'd been in a situation where he saw people all around
him using those techniques, maybe he kind of took it for granted that
anybody could use it.

>After
>l first started getting headaches, he initially expressed surprise, then told
>me to continue with the practices anyway -- that the headaches should stop.

I don't know what his experience had been... I would take pain to be a
sign of a problem.

>So, although l slackened off, l didn't completely stop with the practices for
>several weeks, which probably made it worse.

Yes.

>You asked at what point the Tibetan lamas told me to stop doing practices and
>just take it easy. lt was very early, shortly after the problems began, so if
>l would have followed their advice l probably would've avoided alot of what
>followed with later teachers.

Yes,I think so.

>At that time l was hungry for progress and too
>attached to meditation to be ready to stop everything. And l guess l couldn't
>accept that there wasn't someone out there who could help.

Well, I can understand that... doing nothing doesn't seem like much of an
answer. Although if an M.D. warns someone to take it easy for a while, we
tend to listen more, I think.

>When l mentioned
>that some teachers won't work with k problems unless the person studied with
>them, l didn't mean that the teachers were trying to get them for students,

I know, but it does happen... I just saw an opportunity to get a warning
out again.

>but that these teachers actually send them back to their original teachers
>(or another teacher in that tradition), apparently because they feel that the
>original teacher or someone in his tradition can best understand the problem.
>This has happened to people l know.

Yes, and it's often good advice. The trouble with it is if the original
teacher caused the problem or is someone you really don't want to work
with... But still, there should be someone in the same tradition who would
understand problems and what to do about them. And it would probably be
easier than someone from another tradition trying to figure out what's
wrong.

> l read your post from Matt
>and found his experience to be quite extraordinary, both in terms of the
>conversations with his spiritual guide and his information on electromagnetic
>fields. l remember thinking while l was reading it, " Why doesn't a guide
>like this appear for me?" ls it because l haven't tried hard enough to make
>contact? l don't know -- l've certainly prayed enough. lf l do have a
>spiritual guide, he/she appears to be quite aloof, which may have something
>to do with my being so k-challenged (LOL)

. l've had a couple great k
>dreams in the last year, in which it felt as if l was being sent messages.

I hope you wrote them down.

>Beyond that, it usually feels more like l'm just listening to my body and
>heeding lessons from the past -- nothing special about that, but it appears
>l'm making progress -- at glacial speed

.
>

This higher hearing is a kind of spiritual telepathy, and it works
differently for different people. What's actually being communicated is
the idea or understanding... some people get this immediately and
directly, and then they struggle to find words and images to express it,
for others and even for themselves. Other people have a kind of automatic
brain translation that turns it into words that the person seems to hear,
like a voice speaking. And others have a brain translation mechanism that
turns it into visual images... pictures or symbols for them to interpret.
A friend of mine had an interesting combination... she used to see a broad
band like a ticker-tape scrolling across her visual field, and it had words
on it!

Sometimes a person IS hearing, but it isn't always easy to know it. When
my hearing really developed, I didn't know it. When I'm thinking something
through or thinking about how I want to say something, I often hear my own
voice in my head, you know?

One day I went for a walk in the park to think through some problems in my
life. An answer to something came to me... intuition... you know, the
Aha! experience. Then it happened again... and again... and again. It
was weird... I had never had such a string of intuitions all at once! And
I suddenly wondered if it was all me! I said, "Is that just me thinking?"
And a voice in my head said, "No." And that was the beginning. I knew my
guide was talking to me, and I could hear... the trick was to learn how to
tell whether it was just me thinking or him talking to me. But with
practice, I could tell.

My husband had the first kind of hearing... the idea or understanding just
suddenly came into his head... not words, not images... he just knew.
That's more direct and clearer in some ways, but not so easy to
communicate... and often not easy to get details with. When I wrote down
something my guide told me, I used to ask Bob to check it out (nobody has
100% perfect communication, and I knew I had to be fouling up the message
sometimes). He could look at the page... and I don't think he took enough
time to even see what I was writing about... and he could say "That
paragraph..." or "That sentence... something's wrong there." And when I
finally figured out what it ought to be, I'd ask him to check it again.

Very handy.

)

He could also use a Ouija board, which is an ancient technique from at
least as far back as Pythagoras. I usually put my hand on the planchette
with him, but I was just providing energy. He was reading it... the
message was coming through him, straight from his unconscious and out
through his fingers, by-passing the conscious mind. Doing that, he could
get marvelous detail. Not everyone can do that... I can't, because I hear
it in my head first.

One thing that might help you get started... there are a couple of ways to
use your hands to get simple YES and NO answers. Many chiropractors and
others use muscle-testing. The principle is simple. If you're working
with someone else, you have him hold out his arm, for instance. Then you
push lightly on it, testing the feel of the muscle. Ask his guide for a
YES and push... then ask for a NO and push. For one answer, the muscle
will be strong, and you won't be able to push much. For the other answer,
the muscle will suddenly be very weak... it'll give way. This happens
from a subconscious level, and it's easy to feel the difference. There's a
way of doing this with your own hands to get answers from your own guide.
I also learned a different method of hand signals from a book on
auto-hypnosis. If you'd like to try it, I'll send you the details on the
two methods. It's amazing how much can be communicated with just YES and
NO. You can add other responses... "I don't know" and "Maybe"... but I
kept forgetting which fingers meant what, and I gave that up.

Some people do well with a pendulum, which I think is called dowsing. You
don't have to buy a fancy gadget... just hang a weight, like a key, from a
long thread. Hold it out in front of you between your thumb and
fore-finger, and ask for a YES. Then watch to see what motion happens...
it might swing toward you and away, over and over... or from one side to
the other... or in a circle. Whatever the motion is, that's your YES
signal. Then ask for a NO. And you're ready to talk.

If it works well
for you, you can also establish signals for other answers if you want to.

And my guide is telling me it's past time to go to bed... I'm getting a
mental image of an arm held up with a watch on it.

))

Love,
Dharma

03-24-2000, 04:00 PM

Dharma wrote:

Dharma:
> >> I work _with_ my students' spiritual
> guides. If a new student doesn't
> >> hear, then that's the first thing to
> work on. Meditation and learning to
> >> hear the inner guide. I don't go into
> more advanced work until he hears
> >> his guide or at least can get good
> intuition from the guide on important
> >> matters. You may have read the post I
> forwarded from Matt... I'm working
> >> with him, but he still regards His Lady
> as his main teacher... and rightly
> >> so.

> >

Jerry (which one?):
> > l appreciated your response
> and feel moved to clarify what l
> >said about k awakened people going to
> teachers. There is risk, but most would
> >agree that some risks are justified in
> certain circumstances. l think the
> >risk is much greater when shaktipat is
> used, as opposed to other methods,

Dharma:
> I do give Shaktipat, Jerry... it just
> means the transmission of energy.
> But there isn't anything I would always do
> with every student. I've never
> given Shaktipat to Matt, because he hasn't
> needed any more energy... he's
> got more than he knows what to do with now.
>

))
>
> We are all different, and we develop
> differently. Those lists of the
> initiations, for instance, are just the
> norm or the average... not
> everyone goes through the various stages in
> the same order.

Hello Dharma and Jerry,

This discussion on shaktipat is really
interesting...

As you say, it brings in the "notion" of
"energy" or exchange instead of a "static"
conception of reality... As being Something
inducing something in something else...
Energy is transmitted... It is _generally_
admitted that "something" completely
"realized" may not affect "something" that is
not. How may empty space affect concrete
cement? to take an analogy. Or in other
words, sky (yang, shiva in his pure form)
energy, may not affect Earth, (yin, pure
static Shakti). It is Stagnation (12) in the
Yi-king (yang returning to sky, yin returning
to earth).

Shaktipat, may as well be Peace (11 in the
yi-king) where sky and earth move towards
each other, the star of david, seeking
harmony or "peace", in this flow we got used
to associated with the sensation of energy...

Being in pure sky, away from any
differentiation, how may that "Thing" give
shaktipat to any other thing? Nothing does
exist. Energy is just a shadow....

And if other "things" do exist, the best way
for that "thing" to open would be from its
own "centre". A centre inducing an other
centre to open brings a kind of distortion...
>From my physicist perspective using language,
this distortion fells as "energy" until ones
realigns its centre of perception with its
centre of perception (i.e. the centre of the
circle with no circumference, the zero
point)... so i guess it comes to the same...

The questions remains...

How may one go behind ones others eyes, so he
may help the other to open to him/her/itself,
if he/she/it was not the other in the first
place...

Shakti, shakti, your are a divine mystery.

Antoine

--
May our communities become those of people
who learn from everyone instead of teaching
to everyone!

03-25-2000, 09:00 AM

In a message dated 3/23/00 8:11:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, fisher1@...
writes:

<<
One thing that might help you get started... there are a couple of ways to
use your hands to get simple YES and NO answers. Many chiropractors and
others use muscle-testing. The principle is simple. If you're working
with someone else, you have him hold out his arm, for instance. Then you
push lightly on it, testing the feel of the muscle. Ask his guide for a
YES and push... then ask for a NO and push. For one answer, the muscle
will be strong, and you won't be able to push much. For the other answer,
the muscle will suddenly be very weak... it'll give way. This happens
from a subconscious level, and it's easy to feel the difference. There's a
way of doing this with your own hands to get answers from your own guide.
I also learned a different method of hand signals from a book on
auto-hypnosis. If you'd like to try it, I'll send you the details on the
two methods. It's amazing how much can be communicated with just YES and
NO. You can add other responses... "I don't know" and "Maybe"... but I
kept forgetting which fingers meant what, and I gave that up.

>>

Hi Dharma,
Thanx for this informative response. l've had the kind of muscle
testing you describe done by chiros, but never thought l could do this on
myself. Now l have to admit, ha ha, l'm not sure how easy it'd be for me to
accept that a muscular response represents a message from my spirit guide....
but l'd like to check it out. How would l do this?
love,
jerry

03-25-2000, 09:17 AM

Hi All,

The mind is a very powerful thing. My mother and I once read about
a ball or ring held on a string above the chakras and moving in clock-
wise or counterclockwise rotations depending on health and/or answers.
We tried it and were amazed.

My mother, who has always been enormously intuitive, but also has
a good healthy dose of rational skepticism decided to try to move
the ring on a string with her mind without any questions. And, sure
enough, she could make that thing fly in any direction she chose.

The mind is a very powerful energetic field, and 90% is unconscious,
so when moving energy, muscles and chemicals, remember energy
is energy. Energy guided through a conduit is channeled, but the
sender and receptor are just that, and the energy is energy.

I recently read a quote attributed to Einstein, although mayhaps it
is or isn't his, "The difference between genius and stupidity, is that
genius has its limits."

Another quick example. My sister said to me several years ago,
when i walked in my parent's place, "you can't wear yellow!"

I said, "whyever not?"

She responded, "you told me when you were 12, blondes couldn't
wear yellow."

Laughing, i said, "you're renting space in your head to a 12 year
old who no longer exists, be your own guide, teacher, fashion guru,
take your own Saturn and be your own responsibility." This applies
to spirituality as well ...

L*L*L
~ bo ~

03-30-2000, 06:19 AM

Hi Antoine,

>Hello Dharma and Jerry,
>
>This discussion on shaktipat is really
>interesting...
>
>As you say, it brings in the "notion" of
>"energy" or exchange instead of a "static"
>conception of reality... As being Something
>inducing something in something else...
>Energy is transmitted... It is _generally_
>admitted that "something" completely
>"realized" may not affect "something" that is
>not. How may empty space affect concrete
>cement? to take an analogy. Or in other
>snip<

>The questions remains...

I think you can answer your own questions very well.

As I recall, you
were the first to give me Shaktipat after I found K-people online.

You and I were having a big intellectual argument about something on
another list. You sent me another long post, and clear at the bottom in a
post script was a bomb!! You Shaktizapped me right out of my chair and
into bed!

))

A heck of a way to win an argument... knocking your opponent out of her
chair!

Not that I minded.

Love,
Dharma

03-30-2000, 06:54 AM

Hi Jerry,

>> One thing that might help you get started... there are a couple of ways to
>> use your hands to get simple YES and NO answers. Many chiropractors and
>> others use muscle-testing. The principle is simple. If you're working
>> with someone else, you have him hold out his arm, for instance. Then you
>> push lightly on it, testing the feel of the muscle. Ask his guide for a
>> YES and push... then ask for a NO and push. For one answer, the muscle
>> will be strong, and you won't be able to push much. For the other answer,
>> the muscle will suddenly be very weak... it'll give way. This happens
>> from a subconscious level, and it's easy to feel the difference. There's a
>> way of doing this with your own hands to get answers from your own guide.
>> I also learned a different method of hand signals from a book on
>> auto-hypnosis. If you'd like to try it, I'll send you the details on the
>> two methods. It's amazing how much can be communicated with just YES and
>> NO. You can add other responses... "I don't know" and "Maybe"...
but I
>> kept forgetting which fingers meant what, and I gave that up.

>
>
> Thanx for this informative response. l've had the kind of muscle
>testing you describe done by chiros, but never thought l could do this on
>myself. Now l have to admit, ha ha, l'm not sure how easy it'd be for me to
>accept that a muscular response represents a message from my spirit guide....

Well, to be precise...

Lynea said that we were using muscle-testing (or my alternative finger
signal method) to get answers from the subconscious, which runs the
physical body... So she speaks of addressing the subconscious/body or the
body/subconscious. I had been in touch with my spiritual guide for a long
time, but this seemed to be something different... She also said that we
could tell the subconscious to relay answers from the superconscious, from
our guides. So I did that, too. I don't really know whether that
instruction is necessary, but that's the way she put it. Anyway, it works.
Just be sure what level you're speaking to... ask.

If you're asking about the method... when you use the muscle-testing on
another person, it's easy to see that it isn't done consciously. The
person is often surprised at the answer and surprised when the muscle is
suddenly so weak.

) It's even possible, with permission, to ask the
questions without speaking out loud... and the muscles go right on
answering your questions. My chiropractor works that way. When I see him,
I just lie down and relax and hold my arm out. He's going down long lists
of things and pushing away at my arm. I don't pay any attention to how
it's responding... I don't even know what he's asking.

When you're doing it on yourself, it's a little harder to be sure it's
involuntary. All you can do is try to relax the hand or whatever and let
it happen. You might start out by asking things that are not very
important to you. Or by checking out foods and so forth, to get used to
doing it.

>but l'd like to check it out. How would l do this?
>

I'll send you the instructions.

Love,
Dharma

03-30-2000, 02:01 PM

--- In HarshaSatsangh (AT) onelist (DOT) com, Dharma wrote:

> Hi Antoine,
>
> >Hello Dharma and Jerry,
> >
> >This discussion on shaktipat is really
> >interesting...
> >
> >As you say, it brings in the "notion" of
> >"energy" or exchange instead of a "static"
> >conception of reality... As being Something
> >inducing something in something else...
> >Energy is transmitted... It is _generally_
> >admitted that "something" completely
> >"realized" may not affect "something" that is
> >not. How may empty space affect concrete
> >cement? to take an analogy. Or in other
> >snip<
>
> >The questions remains...
>
> I think you can answer your own questions very well.

As I
recall, you
> were the first to give me Shaktipat after I found K-people online.
>
> You and I were having a big intellectual argument about something on
> another list. You sent me another long post, and clear at the
bottom in a
> post script was a bomb!! You Shaktizapped me right out of my chair
and
> into bed!

))
>
> A heck of a way to win an argument... knocking your opponent out
of
her
> chair!
>
> Not that I minded.

>
> Love,
> Dharma

Hello Dharma,

This bomb, you refer to, in linear time, has already more than a
solar
cycle. Yet referring to that moment seems to open a "door" into the
moment that is as close to the now as this very moment in which I am
given to type this email. In this way it cannot be forgotten in the
flow of time, it points to its very centre... And it cannot vanish
into a shadow, it opens into Reality, already there....

There is no argument, yet I do reply... In this "moment", you
mention,
the head and the tail of the "snake" do "join" to vanish or reappear,
latter, somewhere in the fabric of time and space. But it seems as
one
re-appears for a while as head the other does as a tail. A most
intriguing situation... In those times, I do observe a tendency to
react, or reply, to you. like i do in the following sentence. So
where you say "You Shaktizapped me right out of my chair and into
bed!

))". I will say that what or who Shaktizapped is not a me, it is
outside of the "other", it is (if I can give a name to it), what
opens
the "me" (by experience) or the "other" (by projection) to its own
reality, the Reality...

With time, up now, I simply find out that this "mode" of exchange
shows me, like a flash light in my underground's, the left places
within left to offer to burn. And in this way, I am very grateful to
you to use me as your "polarized" flashlight to find the "horizon"
where the poles merge in what some call the Dao.

Antoine