~Mira~:
Here you've touched the very heart of what I am unable to speak, unable to
describe, unable to explain. It is the point of the absolute. From where 'I'
begin, and consequently 'the rest' begins. It is like the void that is
before anything happens. Before the 'big bang'. And I do not mean the big
bang in the sense of 'how the universe was created a few billion years ago',
but I mean the big bang that happens every instant, every milisecond,
manifesting, from the point of the absolute, that, which appears to be a
'continuity of manifestation'.

Dan: Yes - that empty pause - an endless space...
To shift to That... from being a "creature"
to being "nothing"

What are we waiting for?
There's no time to lose :-)

Then the manifestation as big bang --
Immediate, timeless, moving without moving

To really be "caught up in something"
To have no ideas about what This is...

M: This is the point where I always am, but I cannot know that I am there,
for
'knowing' manifests afterward. From here the mind manifests as the world,
which it then observes and compares.
This is so hard for me to describe, because in describing it, it seems like
some kind of a weird 'chain process' while in fact everything is happening
simultaneously.

D: It's funny that you even can describe it. Kind of amazing, really.
With it happening all at once, you still can find such
good ways to indicate it. And of course, this big bang is occuring
exactly simultaneously with each letter of each word you
have written about it...

> M:
> Only you are there to compare and give it such meaning. Any image in
> itself, is useless, without you.........

> D:
> Thus, any image is simply an image. When there is no "me" in any image -
> there are simply images arising and departing. What is it then
> that gives an image its qualities? How is sensation determined,
> shape, form, coming, departing, associations?
> Once mind is noticed as itself an image,
> a very mysterious quality shines through each and any image or sensory
> experience (an image is the reflection of a sense experience, which is a
> reflection of a sense experience, etc.) This "shining" is very
> inexplicable!

> It's not a matter of reflection, memory, thought, or comparison.

~Mira~:

Yes. Very well put. I have tried to describe this quality as 'sameness'.
Perhaps it is for the absence of judgemental and comparing mind activity
that images and experiences shine through with this transparency. I can
still see the quality that my mind attaches to it, but it has nothing to do
with the original, empty, sameness quality. Mysterious is indeed a beautiful
word for it, for this word kind of excuses the mind for 'not being able to
grasp it'.

Thank you Dan,

With love,
Mira
*Mirror*

Mira~:
Here you've touched the very heart of what I am unable to speak, unable to
describe, unable to explain. It is the point of the absolute. From where 'I'
begin, and consequently 'the rest' begins. It is like the void that is
before anything happens. Before the 'big bang'. And I do not mean the big
bang in the sense of 'how the universe was created a few billion years ago',
but I mean the big bang that happens every instant, every milisecond,
manifesting, from the point of the absolute, that, which appears to be a
'continuity of manifestation'.

Dan: Yes - that empty pause - an endless space...
To shift to That... from being a "creature"
to being "nothing"

What are we waiting for?
There's no time to lose :-)

Then the manifestation as big bang --
Immediate, timeless, moving without moving

To really be "caught up in something"
To have no ideas about what This is...

M: This is the point where I always am, but I cannot know that I am there,
for
'knowing' manifests afterward. From here the mind manifests as the world,
which it then observes and compares.
This is so hard for me to describe, because in describing it, it seems like
some kind of a weird 'chain process' while in fact everything is happening
simultaneously.

D: It's funny that you even can describe it. Kind of amazing, really.
With it happening all at once, you still can find such
good ways to indicate it. And of course, this big bang is occuring
exactly simultaneously with each letter of each word you
have written about it...

> M:
> Only you are there to compare and give it such meaning. Any image in
> itself, is useless, without you.........

> D:
> Thus, any image is simply an image. When there is no "me" in any image -
> there are simply images arising and departing. What is it then
> that gives an image its qualities? How is sensation determined,
> shape, form, coming, departing, associations?
> Once mind is noticed as itself an image,
> a very mysterious quality shines through each and any image or sensory
> experience (an image is the reflection of a sense experience, which is a
> reflection of a sense experience, etc.) This "shining" is very
> inexplicable!

> It's not a matter of reflection, memory, thought, or comparison.

~Mira~:

Yes. Very well put. I have tried to describe this quality as 'sameness'.
Perhaps it is for the absence of judgemental and comparing mind activity
that images and experiences shine through with this transparency. I can
still see the quality that my mind attaches to it, but it has nothing to do
with the original, empty, sameness quality. Mysterious is indeed a beautiful
word for it, for this word kind of excuses the mind for 'not being able to
grasp it'.

ivan: From nothingness, this is humanity. And this humanity is "made of"
something. This something could be called "primordial stuff", or "primordial
matter". And this "primordial stuff" rests on a ground. Is this ground what you
two are calling as "this nothingness" here?

ivan: From nothingness, this is humanity. And this humanity is "made of"
something. This something could be called "primordial stuff", or "primordial
matter". And this "primordial stuff" rests on a ground. Is this ground what
you
two are calling as "this nothingness" here?

What is primordial stuff.......
Is it there when you don't think about it?
You can BELIEVE it is there when you dont think about it, that it has some
kind of independent continuity outside your thought, but is this really
true?
Have you taken a good look at it?
Is anything there at all, the moment you don't think about it?
What is the nature of anything (primordial stuff-humans-earth-universe), as
long as your attention isn't focussed on it?
Is it really there when your attention isn't focussed on it? Really?
Really??
Or do you just think it is...............

Love always,

Mira

ivan: From nothingness, this is humanity. And this humanity is "made of"
something. This something could be called "primordial stuff", or "primordial
matter". And this "primordial stuff" rests on a ground. Is this ground what
you
two are calling as "this nothingness" here?

Mira: What is primordial stuff.......
Is it there when you don't think about it?
You can BELIEVE it is there when you dont think about it, that it has some
kind of independent continuity outside your thought, but is this really
true?
Have you taken a good look at it?
Is anything there at all, the moment you don't think about it?
What is the nature of anything (primordial stuff-humans-earth-universe), as
long as your attention isn't focussed on it?
Is it really there when your attention isn't focussed on it? Really?
Really??
Or do you just think it is...............

ivan: This requires i slightly diferent approuche then reaching
emptiness, although that is indispensable. Manifestation is not illusion,
only interpreting them as "modes" of manifestation is. Manifestation
is plural. There are stones, there is air, there is plurality manifested.
>From emptiness, now, we start studying this manifestation wich is real.
The brain is not interpreting, not thinking, just looking. This human dimension
is not the only dimension that there is. There are other sentient beings
manifested, each with its own dimensional dweling. How we know this?
By seeing other beings. This manifested diferent dimensions as beings,
can be seen as "one entirety multi-dimensional field". This later field is
unique, subtler, material -- but thinner then thought itself -- so that thought
can
never capture it, it is the material from what thought is made from, as any
other
manifestation is also made from. This primordial matter as one entirety rest
on that wich is non-manifested, but real, here... Amazing thing!!!


Love always,

Mira

Ivan

ivan: From nothingness, this is humanity. And this humanity is "made of"
something. This something could be called "primordial stuff", or "primordial
matter". And this "primordial stuff" rests on a ground. Is this ground what
you
two are calling as "this nothingness" here?

Mira: What is primordial stuff.......
Is it there when you don't think about it?
You can BELIEVE it is there when you dont think about it, that it has some
kind of independent continuity outside your thought, but is this really
true?
Have you taken a good look at it?
Is anything there at all, the moment you don't think about it?
What is the nature of anything (primordial stuff-humans-earth-universe), as
long as your attention isn't focussed on it?
Is it really there when your attention isn't focussed on it? Really?
Really??
Or do you just think it is...............

ivan: This requires i slightly diferent approuche then reaching
emptiness, although that is indispensable. Manifestation is not illusion,
only interpreting them as "modes" of manifestation is. Manifestation
is plural. There are stones, there is air, there is plurality manifested.
>From emptiness, now, we start studying this manifestation wich is real.
The brain is not interpreting, not thinking, just looking. This human
dimension
is not the only dimension that there is. There are other sentient beings
manifested, each with its own dimensional dweling. How we know this?
By seeing other beings. This manifested diferent dimensions as beings,
can be seen as "one entirety multi-dimensional field". This later field is
unique, subtler, material -- but thinner then thought itself -- so that
thought can
never capture it, it is the material from what thought is made from, as any
other
manifestation is also made from. This primordial matter as one entirety rest
on that wich is non-manifested, but real, here... Amazing thing!!!

Mira:
And is this manifestation true unless you take it to be true?
Is it true unless you think it is?
Can manifestation exist outside your thought?
Does thought exist outside reality?
Is a thought true or untrue?
~ the thought-stuff is always the same ~
it is nothing,
unless you think it is.......

ivan: From nothingness, this is humanity. And this humanity is "made of"
something. This something could be called "primordial stuff", or "primordial
matter". And this "primordial stuff" rests on a ground. Is this ground what
you
two are calling as "this nothingness" here?

Mira: What is primordial stuff.......
Is it there when you don't think about it?
You can BELIEVE it is there when you dont think about it, that it has some
kind of independent continuity outside your thought, but is this really
true?
Have you taken a good look at it?
Is anything there at all, the moment you don't think about it?
What is the nature of anything (primordial stuff-humans-earth-universe), as
long as your attention isn't focussed on it?
Is it really there when your attention isn't focussed on it? Really?
Really??
Or do you just think it is...............

ivan: This requires i slightly diferent approuche then reaching
emptiness, although that is indispensable. Manifestation is not illusion,
only interpreting them as "modes" of manifestation is. Manifestation
is plural. There are stones, there is air, there is plurality manifested.
>From emptiness, now, we start studying this manifestation wich is real.
The brain is not interpreting, not thinking, just looking. This human
dimension
is not the only dimension that there is. There are other sentient beings
manifested, each with its own dimensional dweling. How we know this?
By seeing other beings. This manifested diferent dimensions as beings,
can be seen as "one entirety multi-dimensional field". This later field is
unique, subtler, material -- but thinner then thought itself -- so that
thought can
never capture it, it is the material from what thought is made from, as any
other
manifestation is also made from. This primordial matter as one entirety rest
on that wich is non-manifested, but real, here... Amazing thing!!!

Mira:
And is this manifestation true unless you take it to be true?

ivan: Of course it is true. We are talking...no? The excence of
non-duality is the absense of awareness separate from a content.
Manifestation is awareness -- real awareness. Why do you doubt
the possibility of "That" manifesting anything? Is this not..."trying to
catch emptiness"? That emptiness is just a turning point. There is no
way to get hold of it.....or remain with it...i am i expressing myself well?

Mira: Is it true unless you think it is?

ivan: I realy don't see where thought came into this. To think is real....
as thought. The winds of the mind may blow without issuing any thoughts.
One may even "visit" other worlds.....all very real. What is it that you call
unreal? The only thing that is unreal is the ilusional separate observer, or
separate difused awareness as a parameter.

Mira:Can manifestation exist outside your thought?

ivan: Maybe you mean "mind" instead of "thought"? But even mind is
a construct. And thought is just another manifestation in this Cosmos.
I feel that maybe we must clear the meaning of some words....very, very
interesting!!

Mira: Does thought exist outside reality?

ivan: Strange question. There is nothing outside reality IMO. Thought
is a sensation in the brain. Thought is a type of limited awareness, an
eletrchemical movement of memory contents...But if thought is aware of itself,
because there is not a separate entity to think it......it changes caracter....
but still thought.


Mira: Is a thought true or untrue?

ivan: True as thought...

Mira:~ the thought-stuff is always the same ~
it is nothing,
unless you think it is.......

ivan: The wind is the same. The primordial material of thought
is the same. But one can give it some "meaning". There is logical
thought...scientific thought....all with relative meaning...but real.

But let's not "forget" the exencial........emptiness.

Mira:
And is this manifestation true unless you take it to be true?

ivan: Of course it is true. We are talking...no? The excence of
non-duality is the absense of awareness separate from a content.
Manifestation is awareness -- real awareness. Why do you doubt
the possibility of "That" manifesting anything? Is this not..."trying to
catch emptiness"? That emptiness is just a turning point. There is no
way to get hold of it.....or remain with it...i am i expressing myself well?

~okay~
let's try to capture this in different words, and see if our languages can
find a meeting point somewhere.

No doubts about the existence of manifestation.
Doubt can only arise as a result of manifestation, not before.
In order to doubt, one need first observe 'that which is doubted',
or otherwise 'what' is doubted? Doubt is totally secondary.
No affirmations about the existence of manifestation.
Affirmation can only arise as a result of manifestation, not before.
In order to affirm, one need first observe 'that which is affirmed',
or otherwise 'what' is affirmed? Affirmation is totally secondary.
Everything I witness, first has to arise in my awareness, or it cannot be
either doubted or affirmed. Every world I am aware of, first has to be seen
and sensed, and only then becomes real in manifestation. Only through the
senses, a world can appear.
Therefore manifestation appears in me, and not I in manifestation.
But aware, I always am, whether manifestation arises in this awareness or
not.

Véjà lá
agora o mundo é todo seu
e eu estou assim
tem mais
se eu sou o seu futuro
quem será você amanhã?

Love always,

Mira

>Mira: No doubts about the existence of manifestation.
> Doubt can only arise as a result of manifestation, not before.
> In order to doubt, one need first observe 'that which is doubted',
> or otherwise 'what' is doubted? Doubt is totally secondary.
> No affirmations about the existence of manifestation.
> Affirmation can only arise as a result of manifestation, not before.
> In order to affirm, one need first observe 'that which is affirmed',
> or otherwise 'what' is affirmed? Affirmation is totally secondary.

Dan: This rings very true. What is it to "stand at the very point"
of manifestation? This occurs this instant. What is it to
not "go into" the secondary aspects and remain with the primary?
This is a powerful point you raise.

> Mira: Everything I witness, first has to arise in my awareness, or it
cannot be
> either doubted or affirmed.

Dan: Including the awareness that "this is arising in my awareness"!
Thus, even the affirmation of "arising in awareness" is
transitory.

M: Every world I am aware of, first has to be seen
> and sensed, and only then becomes real in manifestation. Only through the
> senses, a world can appear.
> Therefore manifestation appears in me, and not I in manifestation.
> But aware, I always am, whether manifestation arises in this awareness or
> not.

D: Even the thought that "it appears in me" arises through the senses and
reacting to what is sensed. What then is manifestation that
neither appears in me, apart from me, or with a me in it?
Sense functions are ... what? Play of infinite energy?
Yes, I agree, who "else" could this energy be...

Mira:
And is this manifestation true unless you take it to be true?

ivan: Of course it is true. We are talking...no? The excence of
non-duality is the absense of awareness separate from a content.
Manifestation is awareness -- real awareness. Why do you doubt
the possibility of "That" manifesting anything? Is this not..."trying to
catch emptiness"? That emptiness is just a turning point. There is no
way to get hold of it.....or remain with it...i am i expressing myself well?

~okay~
let's try to capture this in different words, and see if our languages can
find a meeting point somewhere.

No doubts about the existence of manifestation.
Doubt can only arise as a result of manifestation, not before.

ivan:Yes....even in time this is true...

In order to doubt, one need first observe 'that which is doubted',
or otherwise 'what' is doubted? Doubt is totally secondary.

ivan: Yes.

No affirmations about the existence of manifestation.
Affirmation can only arise as a result of manifestation, not before.
In order to affirm, one need first observe 'that which is affirmed',
or otherwise 'what' is affirmed? Affirmation is totally secondary.

ivan: Yes.

Everything I witness, first has to arise in my awareness, or it cannot be
either doubted or affirmed.

ivan: All arisings as manifestation, are without another being aware of.
This includes the I, the witness, and witnessing. All are firework flowers
in the night of reveillon.

Every world I am aware of, first has to be seen
and sensed, and only then becomes real in manifestation. Only through the
senses, a world can appear.

ivan: Look now: -- all senses are sense objects. There are no senses
without sensing them. So there are no senses, there is no mind, otherewise
one would have to posit a "sensitive" outside the senses. All is being it.

Therefore manifestation appears in me, and not I in manifestation.
But aware, I always am, whether manifestation arises in this awareness or
not.

ivan: Big joy....big fun.... there is not manifestation apart from me. And me
is emptiness, nothingness, unknowability. There is none being aware....
....and still....are we saying the same?


Véjà lá
agora o mundo é todo seu
e eu estou assim
tem mais
se eu sou o seu futuro
quem será você amanhã?

Love always,

Mira

O amor não é eterno pois é chama
Mas que seja infinito enquanto dure
(Vinicius de Morais)

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Diálogos em Português sobre o universo não-dual. Vá até
www.onelist.com e busque: - Unicidade - Seja bem-vindo.
===============================================

Ivan: ...and still....are we saying the same?

Mira: ...at least we are the same
saying it...............

Ivan: ...and still....are we saying the same?

Mira: ...at least we are the same
saying it...............

ivan:...strange thing....the place that can not
be another place...

ivan:...strange thing....the place that can not
be another place...

Mira:
Wow! that's absolutely beautiful.
Thank you.

On Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 07:59:18PM +0200, Mirror wrote:
> From: "Mirror" <mirror@...>
>
> Ivan: ...and still....are we saying the same?
>
> Mira: ...at least we are the same
> saying it...............

Beautiful, Mira!!