hello everyone

My name is hari ,,, i have few questions raised by my
friend that im not able to get over without
answering. My friend is not theist ,, but im a
staunch believer of shiva and vishnu.

1) Y do u ppl here in India are poor n suffering
though they pray god,,, but the ppl in US,UK are
majority rich n healthy thou they dont even kno who
vishnu or shiva are???

2) We Indians thou most of them follow the traditions
and principles are suffering,,,, while ppl in US,UK n
other countries who dont even kno wat
""JADAGAM,PANCHAGAM,, AUSPISCIOUS
DAYS,,OFFERING,SLOGAS,VEDAS ,,BLESSING"" like rich n
happy thru out their life goin places ,resorts n
enjoin

1) how can u prove the existence of god,,,??
thou i watever i explain him,,, he says
tat its mear coincidence.


please answer my question
hari


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On Friday, May 27, 2005, at 02:51 PM, hari h wrote:

> 1) Y do u ppl here in India are poor n suffering
> though they pray god,,, but the ppl in US,UK are
> majority rich n healthy thou they dont even kno who
> vishnu or shiva are???

a) Prosperity or otherwise of a country is more a result of economic
policies than spiritual faith. What you have referred above is at best
association, which is different from causality. if you further analyze
these groups, you might find that believers in vishnu or shiva have
less average height than those who do not believe. Would it imply that
faith in vishnu or shiva is the reason for less average height also?
Clearly, before establishing any causality, it has to be established
that the factors under consideration are actually relevant.

b) As a second step, let us assume that the condition referred above is
not merely due to association, but has a causal relationship. If you
look at the economic data of the world, you will find that barring a
dozen or so countries in Western Europe, US and a few in Asia, pretty
much all of the world is poor. However, the world is not only Western
Europe and US. It consists of 175 countries, majority of which is as
poor as India. None of them believe in vishnu or shiva. If spiritual
faith is the reason for economic condition of a country, why is the
majority of non-believers in vishnu or shiva poor? In fact why should
there be any poverty outside India?

Not to talk of causality, there is not even association in this case.

c) As a third step, let us ignore the above argument for a while and
assume association as well as causality as referred above. However, the
prosperity you are talking of is very recent and does not necessarily
give you enough data to base your argument. On the flip side of it,
till year 1800, for almost a millennium, India was the richest country
producing around one fourth of the entire GDP of the world, with pretty
much same set of spiritual beliefs. This is not to argue that spiritual
beliefs were the cause of India's erstwhile prosperity -- but exactly
the opposite. Causes of India's earlier prosperity and today's
poverty-- both have roots in other than spiritual beliefs. If you are
searching for the causes in a wrong place, you will very likely come up
with the wrong causes.

d) Even after accepting everything in the question as true, who can say
that India's condition would not have been worse but for the belief in
vishnu or shiva?

The argument given in the question above is OK in a casual
conversation, however analyzed logically, it does not hold any rigor.

> 2) how can u prove the existence of god,,,??
> thou i watever i explain him,,, he says
> tat its mear coincidence.

Again, the above question has two aspects. First of all, the inability
to prove existence of God, does not automatically proves the absence of
God. Proving the absence of God is as trick business as proving the
existence.

As regards the proof of existence, it depends on what means of
knowledge you accept as valid. A world view that accepts only
pratyaksha as the valid pramana is closest to an atheist's position.
However, few people will have the intellectual honesty to follow this
premise to its logical conclusion. If you accept inference also as a
valid means, position of a theist and an atheist is equally tenable or
untenable. If you add shabda as another valid means there is no scope
for any doubt.

However, instead of taking an intellectual approach, why not tackle the
problem at the existential level? If deep down in your heart, you are
satisfied that there is no deeper meaning in life than being born and
procreating, that's fine. You are already in a different dimension and
don't need any spiritual teaching, belief in God etc. But are you
honest about your belief in the meaninglessness of life? If yes, why
argue at all on a useless subject? Where does the psychological need
come from?

Regards,

hari h <chromozomee@...> wrote: 1) how can u prove the existence of
god,,,??
thou i watever i explain him,,, he says
tat its mear coincidence.



Namaste Hari,
Can your friend prove the non-existence of God ?
Can your friend prove how life evolved into conscious beings on earth ?
Can your friend prove that Bhagvad Gita is a figment of imagination ?
Can your friend prove by experiment that a huge explosion of gases and other
matter will result in a universe that follows some order, rhythm and cycle ?
Can your friend prove that Vedas are imaginary ?
Can your friend prove that the myriad of characters and stories in Puranas,
Mahabharata and Ramayan are all imaginary ?
Can your friend prove that existence can emerge out of non-existence ?

regards,
Shailendra


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--- In advaitin (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, hari h <chromozomee@y...> wrote:
> hello everyone
>
> My name is hari ,,, i have few questions raised by my
> friend that im not able to get over without
> answering. My friend is not theist ,, but im a
> staunch believer of shiva and vishnu.
>
> 1) Y do u ppl here in India are poor n suffering
> though they pray god,,, but the ppl in US,UK are
> majority rich n healthy thou they dont even kno who
> vishnu or shiva are???
>


Namaste Hari-ji

It has been forecast by great historians like Toynbee that the
middle of the 21st century would see the world veer round to the
nobler ancient thought processes of the East, among which India has
been always counted as a major contributor.

Man's essential qualities are the most welcome qualities of
sympathy, compassion, kindliness and brotherhood. If we forget this
in our craze for modern science and technology it is only a crisis
of intellect. What is important for the 21st century citizen is to
come together and rediscover these ancient thoughts that have
remained with us for more than twenty centuries now. The period of
the first millenium B.C. is the most important period of history in
this connection. That was the time when the axis of world's thoughts
shifted from a study of nature to the study of man's life and his
inner aspirations. Then in India we had the Upanishadic seers,
Mahavira the Jina and Gautama the Buddha. ; in China we had Lao Tse
and Confucius; In Iran there was Zoroaster; in Israel there were the
great prophets; in Greece, Pythagoras, Socrates and Plato. That
surge of activity and investigation and the profundity of thought of
that period have never since been matched. They achieved so much
with so little help from any gadgetry. The philosophers of the first
millenium B.C. achieved what they did by sheer rational thinking
coupled with a certain uniue intuition of their own.

The test of significance of what they left for posterity is the fact
that they have survived twenty centuries of war and peace, strife
and hatred, and all the ups and downs of grfeat empires and
civilizations. It is extremely doubtful whether anything of what we
call 20th century science and technology will survive as valid
knowledge twenty centuries hence!

History should be studied not as history of different nations but
as history of man and of his wars against poverty, disease and
wickedness. Peace is not absence of war but it is a mutual
understanding of each other's aspirations and rights.

So who do you think is ultimately healthy, wealthy and wise?

PraNAms to all advaitins.
profvk

Dear Hari,

> 1) Y do u ppl here in India are poor n suffering
> though they pray god,,, but the ppl in US,UK are
> majority rich n healthy thou they dont even kno who
> vishnu or shiva are???

People in US, UK also pray to the Lord, indulge in rituals prescribed by
their faith (Christian, Jew or otherwise) and seek divine help to further
their material enterprises. In this respect they do not differ from
worshippers of Shiva or Vishnu. The difference lies in the work culture
which they have fostered, and virtues like honesty, sincerity, spirit of
adventure, spirit of inquiry and enterprise which they have cultivated-
which are conducive to material prosperity. Indians were propserous when
they possessed these virtues, and are poor because they lost them somewhere
along the line. Whether it is Shiva, Vishnu, Jesus or Jehova; gods don't
help those who don't help themselves.

> 2) We Indians thou most of them follow the traditions
> and principles are suffering,,,, while ppl in US,UK n
> other countries who dont even kno wat
> ""JADAGAM,PANCHAGAM,, AUSPISCIOUS
> DAYS,,OFFERING,SLOGAS,VEDAS ,,BLESSING"" like rich n
> happy thru out their life goin places ,resorts n

Traditions and principles are of two kinds.
a) Temporal practices and traditions like Karma Kanda portion of Vedas,
Smrutis of Manu and others. As Science keeps on updating itself these should
also be updated to suit changing times. If they are followed blindly they
degenerate into dogmas and superstitions and lead to stagnation and
downfall of the society. Western sciences like Medicine and Astronomy were
also full of many wrong ideas during the middle ages and would have remain
so if they had stuck to their dogmas.

b) Eternal principles like those enunciated in the Upanishads (Jnana Kanda
portion of Vedas) which stand true for ever in all conditions and times.

IMHO Indians have neglected to update the Karma Kanda portion which dealt
with necessities of material life, satisfying themselves with mere
mechanical recital, which is responsible their material backwardness. They
however did not neglect the Jnana Kanda portion, which has lead to the
blossoming of a most wonderful system of philosophy.

> 1) how can u prove the existence of god,,,??
> thou i watever i explain him,,, he says
> tat its mear coincidence.

There is no need to prove existence of God to anyone. Everyone has to mature
spiritually on his own.

Pranams to all advaitins

Ravi Shivde

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hello sir,

thanks a lot in spendin ur valuable time in answering
my questions,, really matured answers of yours seems
very convincing ,,the fact that im hazy about is , i
believe only in the presence of SHIVA , VISHNU ,
BRAHMA n not any other religion... other than that
answers would have cleared the doubts of lots of
ppl,,, the essence taken the upanishads were nicely
explained ,, again thanks a lot


hari


--- Ravi Shivde <shivde@...> wrote:

> Dear Hari,
>
> > 1) Y do u ppl here in India are poor n suffering
> > though they pray god,,, but the ppl in US,UK are

List Moderators Note Once Again: Please do not include the previous messages as
a tail of your message while sending your replies. Both the new members and
other members do seem to continue to repeat doing this. The list appreciates
your cooperation in keeping the message crisp and clear by removing all
unnecessary parts of previous messages. (As it is done in this message!)


hello sirs,

thanks for all your answers,,, thanks a lots for
patiently the the questions and answering in the
most elegant with quoting excellent events from
history and examples...

thanks
hari



--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk@...> wrote:

> --- In advaitin (AT) yahoogroups (DOT) com, hari h
> <chromozomee@y...> wrote: