smr^tir labdhA in BG18.73 [ was: the case for jeeva not the same from moment to moment]

09-02-1999, 07:22 AM

On Wed, 1 Sep 1999, Max Harris wrote:

> From: "Max Harris"
>
> I would like to apply my two points about
> Jiva vs. ego and remembering vs. memory
> to Ch. 18, v. 73 of the Gita, as cited by Ram:
>
> >In Verse 73, the student, Arjun replies affirmatively:
> >
> >nasto mohah smrtir labdhaa tvatprasaadaan mayaa ‘cyuta
> >sthito ‘smi gatasmdehah karisye vacanam tava
> >
> >My illusion is destroyed and I have regained my true identity through
> >your Grace. O Achyta (Krishna), I stand firm to complete my commitment
> >and all my doubts have been dispelled. I shall obey and act according
> >to your wish.
>
> >A Jnana Yogi gets the liberation by focusing his attention just like
> >Arjun's expression in Verse 73 of chapter 18. In Verse 73, Arjun's reply
> >contain two profound words: "Smrtir Labdha" (memory regained). The human
> >life is the Grace of God and the seeker forgets this Truth and seeks to
> >remember the forgotten Truth about his/her Divine ancestry.
>
> If "Smrtir Labdha" can mean "memory regained," it suggests
> the following ideas to me:
>
> First, that liberation can be accomplished via a remembering
> of a deep Truth; hence the act of remembering can be liberating instead of
binding, depending on what is being remembered.
>
> Second, If the ego is viewed as a life-specific formation
> within a Jivatman which transcends lives, then it might be
> said that a remembering which draws primarily from ego-level
> memory traces is binding, whereas a remembering which goes
> deeper than ego-level memory traces can be liberating. As
> the ego grows into the Jivatman and is assimilated by it,
> remembering gradually becomes less ego-constitutive and more
> more of a Self-realization ("I have regained my true identity").
>
> Third, the memory store of the Jivatman is not limited to
> the memory traces it acquires from each incarnation, and from
> the imaginal activity of each ego formation. The Jivatman
> possesses knowledge (memories?) reflective of its origin
> and sustaining source. Hence the Truth is within us.
>
> -- Max
>

namaste. First, I changed the subject of the thread to smr^tir
labdhA which reflects more the content of this post.

As I understand, there are some difficulties with the above analysis.

If smr^tir labdhA: = memory regained = remembered,
It then means: Out of the huge amount of information that is cluttering
or stored in the mind, or wherever that is kept, pick up one piece of
information.

If we interpret smr^tir labdhA that way, it means Arjuna seems to be
saying: "... O yes, I remember my true identity, I am Brahman...".
But that is not realization and that is not Brahman for the following
reasons.

1. If you know you are Brahman, you can never forget It and then
remember It.

2. Knowing Brahman is not a faculty of the mind. It is something
beyond the mind, and beyond smr^ti (beyond remembering, beyond
memory).

3. "I am Brahman" is not a retrievable piece of information. If that
is the case, you remember it today, and you may forget it tomorrow.
That is not the way Brahman is realized, as the upanishads repeatedly
say.

4. Arjuna has not realized Brahman at that stage of learing BG18.73.
This is in spite of VishwarUpadarshanam, and being taught by the
greatest of the teachers, Lord Krishna. Arjuna has still to go
through the war, the sufferings associated with the killings of
the next of kin and so on. Further, Arjuna attains swarga loka
only and not Brahman realization.

Thus, smr^tir labdhA may be interpreted as Arjuna saying " I remember
what my duty is." only.

Regards
Gummuluru Murthy
------------------------------------------------------------------------

09-02-1999, 03:15 PM

Namaskar Murthygaru:

Thanks for your enthusiastic reply with detailed and thoughtful
explanations. I like your interpretation of smr^tir labdha and it is
quite appropriate at the given context of Mahabharat war and the
resurgence of Arjun to fight the war.

I believe that Bhagavad Gita goes beyond Arjun and Mahabharat war and we
should prepare our mind to accept the subtle messages that are relevant
for all human being in dealing with day to day life. I agree that we
should be more cautious in our interpretations and conclusions.

The verses 72 and 73 are last of the two verses spoken by the Guru (Lord
Krishna) and the seeker (Arjun). The Guru asks the final question and
student answers affirmatively and both the student and the Guru are
fully satisfied. This climax scene was staged by Vedavyasa to awaken the
Vedic Civilization to regain and retain its past glory.

Swami Chinmayananda gives the following interpretation to Verse 73:

“Somewhat like one who has suddenly awakened from an unconscious state,
Arjuna with a regained self-recognition assuredly confesses that his
confusions have ended-not because he has implicitly swallowed the
arguements in the discourses of the Gita, but because, as Arjun himself
says, ‘I have gained a recognition of my real nature. The hero in my has
been now awakened and the neurotic condition that had temporarily
conquered my mind has been totally driven out.’

Such a revival within an a rediscovery of our personality are possible
for all of us if only we truly understand the significance of the Gita
philosophy. The infinite nature of Perfection is our own; It is not
something that we have to gain from somewhere at the intervention of
some outer agency. This angelic and mighty Being within ourselves is now
lying veiled beneath our own egocentric confusions also end, and we get
awakened to our real nature. So too in life. This awakening of the
angel in us is the ending of the beast within.”

Regards,

Ram Chandran
Burke VA

>From: Gummuluru Murthy

>
>namaste. First, I changed the subject of the thread to smr^tir
>labdhA which reflects more the content of this post.
> ...................

>Thus, smr^tir labdhA may be interpreted as Arjuna saying " I remember
>what my duty is." only.
>
>Regards
>Gummuluru Murthy

09-05-1999, 07:02 PM

On ch. 18 verses 72 and 73 of the Gita: I have been pondering the
interpretation of these verses in the light of our discussion,
and not knowing Sanskrit I have pondered various English
translations and commentaries, and I reach the following
humble conclusions:

I think that Arjuna is remembering more than just his duty
in verse 73, but I also acknowledge that what he is realizing
is something less than the fullest Brahman-realization. I think
the most appropriate interpretations of Verses 72 & 73 would
point to something in between merely remembering his duty and
fullest Brahman-relaization.

When Krishna asks Arjuna in verse 72, "Has the delusion of
ignorance now been destroyed?" and Arjuna answers in verse
73 "My delusion is destroyed, and by your grace I have regained
memory," I think the Gita is indicating that Krishna's discourse
and theophany have enabled Arjuna to "remember" deep self-knowledge
that not only clarified his duty, but also cleared his vision and
strengthened his heart. I suspect this deep self-knowledge is
the kind of "partial Brahman-realization" that Veronica was
talking about in her recent post. I think it is also what
Swami Chinmayananda was talking about in the quote which
Ram Chandran shared with us:

>Swami Chinmayananda gives the following interpretation to Verse 73:
>
>“Somewhat like one who has suddenly awakened from an unconscious state,
>Arjuna with a regained self-recognition assuredly confesses that his
>confusions have ended-not because he has implicitly swallowed the
>arguements in the discourses of the Gita, but because, as Arjun himself
>says, ‘I have gained a recognition of my real nature. The hero in my has
>been now awakened and the neurotic condition that had temporarily
>conquered my mind has been totally driven out.’
>
>Such a revival within an a rediscovery of our personality are possible
>for all of us if only we truly understand the significance of the Gita
>philosophy. The infinite nature of Perfection is our own; It is not
>something that we have to gain from somewhere at the intervention of
>some outer agency. This angelic and mighty Being within ourselves is now
>lying veiled beneath our own egocentric confusions also end, and we get
>awakened to our real nature. So too in life. This awakening of the
>angel in us is the ending of the beast within.”

Not knowing Sanskrit and not being a Vedanta scholar,
I offer these thoughts with humility.

Namaste,
-- Max

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09-06-1999, 02:18 AM

Hi Max,

> Max Harris wrote:
I think that Arjuna is remembering more than just his duty
in verse 73, but I also acknowledge that what he is realizing
is something less than the fullest Brahman-realization. I think
the most appropriate interpretations of Verses 72 & 73 would
point to something in between merely remembering his duty and
fullest Brahman-relaization.<

Please excuse my interjection:

This final part of the dialogue between Krsna and Arjuna I feel is, indeed,
the final act of complete surrender of the JivAtman. And as such is the
fullest realization.
Arjuna says the following:

1) mohah nashTah - " Delusion is destroyed."
2) smrtih mayA labdhah - "Memory (remembrance) has been regained."
3) sthitah asmi - "I am firm."
4) gata samdehah - "I am freed from doubt."
And interestingly he calls Krsna in this verse "Achyuta", which means
"Imperishable or One who does not swerve from his Real nature." The import
of this epithet is that in his complete surrender to the divinity he becomes
That.

It is also worth noting that Krsna acknowledges Arjuna by the epithet
"Dhananjaya", "Winner of the prize", in the previous verse, 72.

Regards
Miles