Trying to offend my Spiritial Master or me with your conceit and drivel is not going to work. Your argument is with Prabhupada, not me.
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Srila Prabhupada is the one who said we have come down from Vaikuntha many millions of years ago. Lecture August 6, 1973 <o:p></o:p>
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You remind me of the debate others were having on another thread and Beggar bagging the dream –avadis, as he called them. Eventually though he began to realize the difference between the ‘eternal present’ in Goloka, that has no past or future and the material creation, that has no ‘present’, only past and future. Many have realized that if Goloka is an eternal imperishable place, then we are there right now and always have been there, we just have to realize and stop 'dreaming' we are in the material creation.
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It is interesting to understand that when Jaya and Vijaya became demons for three births, they were still Jaya and Vijaya and remained there in Vaikuntha within the ‘eternal present’ while their secondary self-manifestation came here to the material world to act like demons.
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This does not mean their fall was not a real experience because it was, they really believed they were demons but on return to Vaikuntha their departure was no more than a moment.
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If one can understand the eternal presents of Vaikuntha as well as the divided time of past, present, and future in the material world, then one can understand, by dent of bhakti and the teaching of Srila Prabhupada, how this works.
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Jaya and Vijaya, as well as ever other jiva tattva in Goloka, can have numerous forms, just as Yasoda has limitless forms and just as Krsna has so many forms in Vaikuntha, in Dvaraka, and here and there. There are lakhs of universes in the mahat-tattva also, in each cosmos, there is one Vrndavana, and Krsna is there in Vrndavana.
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We cannot visualize this. An individual may be capable to calculate the stars in the sky or the sands on the earth, but he or she will not be able to praise the charming pastimes of Krsna.
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It is a fact that the jiva can fall from Goloka Vrndavana in the same way as Jaya and Vijaya did, not as their eternal Svarupa body but as a secondary manifestation that ALL marginal living entities can activate if they choose to enter the material mahat-tattva.
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Any liberated soul can also come with Krsna to assist in His pastimes, as Sridama and Subala do. Krsna sends them here only to help the rebellious baddha-jivas return back to their original position in Goloka and again re-establish and regain the memory of who they really are which is their eternal nitya-siddha body.
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We are all everlastingly Krsna dasa, servants of Krsna, but now we have forgotten Krsna. The jiva can forget Krsna, so what does this actually mean?
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It means that the jiva’s, now in the material world in their secondary manifestation, were once ‘aware’ they were serving Krsna. Actually, they still are, but have fallen out of sync with the ‘eternal present’ where their true eternal bodily form perpetually exists always engaged in Krsna's service, but now one has forgotten that service.
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Some incorrectly say, due to them not understanding the concept of the ‘eternal present’, that, “Actually, this is not true, this is not how the jiva enters the material world, by coming down from Goloka as a secondary manifestation of their consciousness”. However, we now understand that this is exactly how the small minority of marginal living entities, enter the material world. Therefore their ideas and the proper understanding of tatastha-s'akti is not fully developed
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Srila Prabhupada has told us that the vast majority of jiva-tattva’s never come to the material world in a secondary consciousness manifestation (baddha-jiva) to exploit the material energy.
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The majority of marginal living entities always remain fixed in their constitutional position. They always endeavour to please Bhagavan, and are always favourable to Him. By virtue of the divine sakti, they have the potency to stay permanently ‘aware, awake, alert’ of their eternal nitya-siddha bodily form and their loyalty and service to Krsna.
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In fact, they have no connection with the material energy whatsoever, in effect, they are oblivious, due to their choice to always serve Krsna, that there is even a deluding influence called Maya, and thus most jivas NEVER come under Her enchantment because they are always absorbed in the bliss of serving their worshipable Lord.
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So it is in this way they are eternally liberated (Always aware they are nitya-siddha) and are free from material happiness and distress. Their life is Bhakti only, and they are not even cognizant to melancholy, death or fear."
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Since ALL living reside in the spiritual world of eternal presents in their full devotional potential, devoid of any past or future, Maya stays far from them and does not affect them at all because she has no power in Vaikuntha or Goloka.
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It is only when those minorities of jivas choose to forget Krishna and the svarupa nitya-siddha body they serve Krsna as, do they enter Maha-Vishnu’s temporary material world and come under the influence and temptations of His wife, Maya Devi.
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Srila Prabhupada - “You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…Try to understand. Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness." Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971<o:p></o:p>

Srila Prabhupada -"You are ever-liberated (nitya-siddha). The sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, Actually, you are NOT conditioned (nitya-baddha). You are thinking. Just like in the dream that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream". Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Srila Prabhupada -"Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive (Regain, re-establish, wake up from the dream, remember who we really are as a body eternally in a state of originality) our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that (my svarupa body is always in Krsnaloka), "I have nothing to do with (the material world and its bodily vessels my sub-conscious fallen nitya-baddha condition is housed in). I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all". Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971<o:p></o:p>
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h Srila Prabhupada rejects the ideas of those who preach the 'impersonal Brahmajyoti origin that claims that the marginal living entity is originally in a dormant state (a plain sheet of consciousness) from where one can develop and then use their free will to choose either Vaikuntha or the mahat-tattva. <o:p></o:p>
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Many today in other Vaishnava sects may follow that misunderstanding however, it appears to me they have incorrectly used the word 'tatastha' to describe the jiva's impersonal dormant origin state after its so called creation from this 'plain sheet of consciousness'.<o:p></o:p>
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They claim the jiva’s originate from the brahmajyoti, which is living and growing claiming that within the brahmajyoti, their stability is somehow disturbed and progress begins. From no separation, separation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious, it is now capable of free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation in the mahat-tattva or the side of dedication or service to Krsna in Goloka.
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Srila Prabhupada clearly rejected that impersonal idea that the jiva springs into existence from the dormant Brahmajyoti and told his devotees NOT to preach it in his Temples'.
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They have impersonally described jiva tatastha as manifesting first from a dormant state to become 'tatastha', meaning that now the living entity exists, it now has the ability to choose due to free will and can only then be called tatastha-sakti due to being created, or coming into existence, from the all pervasive impersonal Brahmajyoti.<o:p></o:p>
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They claim the living entity is born from a plain sheet of consciousness and becomes the jiva- tatastha however, their interpretation of the word ‘tatastha’, that foolishly and incorrectly describes this independent nature of the jiva only to manifests after it’s birth from the impersonal Brahmajyoti, is clearly rejected by Srila Prabhupada.<o:p></o:p>
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Their idea that the living entity manifests from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and then moves into the position of ‘tatastha sakti’ after it is born from the impersonal Brahmajyoti is nonsense. The fact is we all ‘sub-consciously’ came down from Vaikuntha millions of years ago from where our eternal Svarupa body is perpetually present and NOT the impersonal Brahmajyoti.<o:p></o:p>
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So clearly their idea that our original beginning manifested on the border, in-between the land and the ocean (meaning Goloka and the material world) is incomplete and rejected by Srila Prabhupada because factually, there is no beginning or origin (coming into existence) of the living entity. Tatastha is the eternal position of the living entity which simple means the free will to choose Krsna or the mahat-tattva<o:p></o:p>
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It's therefore clear they do not understand the concept of the 'eternal present', where the full possible bodily expression and potential of the jiva tatastha is eternally found within the perpetual 'NOW' of Goloka. <o:p></o:p>
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We, the Jiva tatastha (simply meaning we have the free will to choose) are expressed there as who we really are IN OUR FULL MARGINAL POTENTIAL without the concept of past or future, that makes us imperishable in our endless NITYA-SIDDHA SVARUPA body, ALWAYS within that realm of the perpetual 'present'. <o:p></o:p>
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This eternal present or the forever 'now' is found ONLY in Goloka. What is there is ALWAYS there, meaning we are in Goloka RIGHT NOW even though we are dreaming we are in the material creation of past and future.<o:p></o:p>
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